Blue Collar Culture

Business Results the Old Fashioned Way

Adam Honig | A CRM on Steroids

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Forget old school CRM, says Adam Honig, CEO of Spiro. It’s an expensive waste of time.

The alternative:  PRM – Proactive Relationship Management.  Spiro uses AI for more effective and efficient data collection and communications with prospects that lead to more sales and growth for companies. 

They’re bringing “big data” to sales to make salespeople more productive and make sure they focus on activities that get results – like actually talking to prospects… and keep them accountable. And it’s all automatic. We get into detail on this and how to build effective sales teams, as well as… 

  • Getting to the second layer of insight in sales
  • Eliminating the biggest time-waster in the sales process
  • Why an 80% close rate is a bad thing
  • Ways to identify a good salesperson during an interview, including key questions to ask
  • And more

Listen now…

Mentioned in this episode:

Transcript

Ryan Englin: Welcome back to another episode of the Blue Collar Culture Podcast. I'm your co-host, Ryan Englin. I'm here with Jeremy Macliver.

Jeremy Macliver: Welcome back, everyone.

Ryan: I'm really excited to talk to this guest today that we have for you. He is an expert in building sales teams, building effective sales process, and he really brings a genuine spin on thinking about building a sales team and how you can get more out of your salespeople. He's been doing this for a long time. He's got a couple of businesses that he's actually founded, grown and sold. And right now, he is actually the CEO of a software development company that their sole purpose is to kill the CRM. And I'm gonna let him explain that more in just a second. So I just want to welcome Adam Hoenig to the podcast today.

Adam Honig: Thanks, Ryan. Great, great to meet you and Jeremy.

Ryan: So tell me about this. Your goal is to kill the CRM. And to me, I struggle with that because isn't that what salespeople are supposed to do is keep the CRM up to date? Help me understand that.

Breathing New Life Into Terrible Sales Software

Adam: Well, I just think of all of the terrible ways that salespeople, you know, have been asked to do terrible things over time. CRM is definitely, you know, right up there at the top. I have to say, I was at a show a little while ago, and I asked a roomful of salespeople how much they like their CRM. And some guy threw something at me.

Another guy told me that he felt like it was being in a bad relationship because all it did was take. It didn't give anything back. And, you know, and I, you know, unfortunately, I have the misfortune of having worked in CRM for about 20 years. And it's just been such a colossal waste of millions and millions of dollars that I just feel like we need to bury it and move on.

Ryan: Wow. So what do you do? I mean, how do you get rid of tracking and holding your salespeople accountable, making sure they're doing the activities that produce results if you don't have a CRM?

Adam: Well, here's the crazy thing, I mean, we have such great technology in the world, but yet CRM is so dumb, it doesn't even know when you sent a customer a quote. You know, CRM just sits there like a dumb rock and does nothing for you. You know, and our point of view is Wouldn't it be amazing if the software could just watch what you're doing listen to your phone calls, you know, see what your emails are, and update itself? Like, surely the technology for that is available. And in fact, it is.

And that's kind of our approach. We want to liberate sales teams from having to do all of that work that they do today with CRM, but still have all the data stored, you know, where they need it. And, you know, not just for reports, you know, for management. I mean, that's important. But really, so the software can use the data to say, Oh, wait a second, what about Jeremy? You spoke to him last week and you haven't followed up with him. Maybe I'll just give you a little reminder to get back to them about that proposal that you've been sending.

Ryan: Wow. So the software that you've developed actually supports the sales process. Does it lead to more activity, more of the right activities from your salespeople?

Adam: Yeah, well, so the whole idea is actually pretty simple when you think about it. If a salesperson doesn't have to do any data entry, if they never have to update a deal, if they never have to update an opportunity, then, you know, then they, you know, they can spend more time actually talking to prospects, which is sort of an amazing thing. And then the other part of it, which is kind of cool is because the software knows who they talk to and who they didn't talk to, it can automatically just ring them and, you know, send them a message, an email a text message or whatever and say, Hey, call this person.

You know, you need to get back to them. And so what we've seen is that on average, you know, our customers are seeing their sales teams talk to more people every day. And sort of my philosophy is, well, if you're talking to eight people in a day, normally, and I can help you talk to 10, maybe by the end of the week, that's an extra 10 people you spoke to, one or two new proposals, you know, hey, that that can really up the win rate for the sales team. And that's how you know, we all make more money, which of course is super important.

Jeremy: Okay, so Adam, let's dig into this a little bit here. You know, I am a, I got it right here on my board in my office. It says what gets measured gets done. I'm sure you're a believer of that, correct?

Adam: For sure.

Jeremy: And so, that's where we feel like we need this, right? Because we need to know that we're out. actually driving that. I mean, it's a great theory to say, hey, it's gonna go fast and it's gonna track this stuff. If we don't, how do we get more? How do we drive the accountability through the software if we're not, I mean, again, it's reading that, but how does it set up? What is that?

Software With a Self-Writing to-do List

Adam: So when I started my career in sales, what I would do is I would get up every morning and I'd make a big long list of every person I needed to speak to that day, right? And I was like, Okay, here's how I'm going to move the needle, I'm going to speak to these people, I'm going to make this happen. Here's the deals I'm going to push through.

And, you know, I would get that all organized so that I could be super productive when I, you know, is able to hit the phones in the morning and meet with people. And the philosophy of the software is the same thing. It is just a part of my software, which is called Spiro, is a self-writing to-do list that's constantly updating itself based upon what's happening, you know, in your email and from the phone calls that you're making, in the visits to customers that you're making.

So because it knows, Jeremy, that I've got a meeting with you next Friday, it doesn't bother telling me to call or email you because it knows we got that connection. But for Ryan, who it sees that, you know, I sent him a quote and I haven't followed up on or maybe I had a meeting with him yesterday and I haven't sent him a follow-up email, it's going to be bugging me about that. So Spiro is constantly putting in front of people the most important thing that they need to do at that moment. So that's kind of the way that it does that.

Ryan: Very good. One of the things that I'm curious about, think about a lot of our listeners and especially in the trades, they're usually slow to adopt technology. And they may not be super tech-enabled because guys have always been out in the field. Sure, there might be some tablets and stuff. But if they've got their sales team doing this, I mean, do they got to sit behind a computer all day? Do they have to be really forward-thinking in the way they adopt technology? Do they gotta have an IT guy that can get this stuff? A programmer, those kinds of things? I mean, it sounds really complex.

Adam: Yeah, well, I'm sorry if I'm describing it that way. It's sort of an occupational hazard. But, you know, the philosophy of Spiro is that we want the software not even to be, you know that you're using it, you know? So imagine, you know, you're going out to, you know, call on a customer. Let's say you're installing HVAC systems, that's your business. And you go out and you're, you got a call with a customer, but you get there, it's like 10 minutes early, because you want to be polite, and you want to make sure that you're at the right location and stuff like that.

So what do you do with that 10 minutes? Okay, you can, you know, open up the news and look at it, or maybe you just open up your phone, you go to your inbox, and here's a bunch of emails from Spiro saying, you know, call this person. The phone number's right there, you click on the phone number, it makes the phone call for you. Oh, by the way, it's transcribing the phone call in the background.

So if you ever need to go back and remember what you said or something like that, it's gonna be right there for you so you know what's going on. And even if you say, hey, Sally, I'll send you that information, Spiro knows that that's sort of an action thing that you promised somebody so it's going to make a reminder to do that. You know, so there are things in it which are kind of technical and complicated, Ryan, but we try to hide that from the user because they're not computer scientists. They don't need to be dealing with all of that whatnot. You know, they just need to be talking to people getting quotes out.

Ryan: I love that. So they can focus on selling, they can focus on building relationships with the customers, making calls, doing those activities that really drive results.

Adam: And this is the problem that I have with Silicon Valley, I have to say, like all of these smart tech firms, they make software for smart tech firms. And, you know, like, that's great if you live in, I don't know, San Mateo, or wherever those places are. But, you know, for the rest of the country, you know, we need software that just does its own thing and doesn't get in the way. And that's kind of what we're all about. Because you're right, because it doesn't matter. The software doesn't matter. It's all about the relationship that the team is building with the customer.

Ryan: I love that. So for those people listening right now, they're like, Oh, this sounds great, but I'm still doing sales. I am the only person, I own the company, I'm the one doing sales. I really got to hire a salesperson. It's great that I have the software that's holding them accountable. But what are some things that you've learned in your career and even with building the software that you've seen that really gets really solid salespeople out there, builds an effective team so they can really drive results?

Adam: Well, I think, you know, building a sales team is an incredibly challenging exercise. And it's not to be attempted by the faint of heart. Because salespeople, they have to have two things to be successful that are somewhat opposed. They have to be good at connecting with people, listening to what their needs are, so that they can understand the right way we can help them. But they also need to be process-oriented and make sure that they do kind of the same things over and over again.

And when you're really good at the listening, solutioning, building relationship with people thing, you're not often very good at the other thing. And I think when we hire salespeople, we often err on the side of the charismatic relationship builder and not on, you know, the person who's just going to be everyday kind of getting things done. So I would caution people to really have a balance between the two of those and to err on the side of getting things done, as opposed to being such a magnetic personality. That would be, if I had to kind of sum it up in like one paragraph, that's where I would lean.

Ryan: Now, that's great. I just had a conversation today with a client and he was, we run behavioral assessments on new applicants. And, you know, he's telling me how much he loves this person. She's going to be inside sales, they connected right away. She asked great questions. She listened well. Run her scan, she is very low dominance, very high extraversion. And so I started talking to him and I actually interviewed her a little bit.

My biggest concern was she's a great listener, she's super supportive, she's someone I enjoy talking to but could she actually follow the process and close, right? Because I see her being so altruistic, she wants to help everybody. I'm like, I don't know if she's going to be able to close for you. And at the end of the day, you can have the most friendly salesperson on the planet. If they can't close, they're not getting results.

Adam: Yeah. Now, of course, you know, depending upon the sales team, you could always have the owner or the president of the company come in to do the closing. And that will work in some circumstances, but it doesn't scale very well. You can't, you know, be yourself, the closer and dealing with everything else you need in the business at the same time. I find that, so what I like to do is think about the sale process in certain steps. And always be measuring the conversion from one step to the next. And when I'm interviewing salespeople, I try to think about how are they going to do in those different, you know, different parts of the sales process.

So the initial opening of an opportunity, the understanding of the need, the being able to craft a proposal or quote to help the customer and then the closing. And when we do sales interviews, we have like a list of questions that we ask people about each one of those specific things so that we can know like, how well we think they're going to do in those different areas.

Ryan: So are there any, I love that breaking it down into a process and looking for people that are going to succeed in those. For smaller companies, sometimes you got to have one person that's going to make it through the whole thing. Or like you said, if there's an opportunity for the owner to come in, or maybe a sales manager to come in, they can close. How do you really find someone that's going to be good overall around?

Like, what are some actual things that you've seen work in finding a good salesperson? Because one of the biggest things that I see is salespeople, they're good at selling. So they're really good at interviewing. They're good at connecting. And so you get done with the interview, like, that's the guy that's going to close and then you find that he can't. So what are some things you see work, or maybe some things, that don't work?

It Can Be as Simple as Asking

Adam: There's a bunch of tips, and I'm all about the super practical things. So this is not like big theory, for me. This is all practical stuff. First of all, I would always ask a salesperson, you know, how good a job they do, you know, kind of creating call sheets or updating a CRM and stuff like that. And if they're going to tell you they do a good job at it, I would say don't hire them. Because either, you know, they're lying right there or, you know, they're spending too much time doing admin work.

So forget about that. The other thing that I always like to do is make sure that the people that you're interviewing, that they know you're going to talk to references, right? From the beginning of the interview process. And I always like to talk to customers and former employers. And the question that I always focus on is giving them an option to say that the salesperson maybe shouldn't be in sales. And so, Ryan, the way that that would work is you'd say, Hey, I'm interviewing, you know, Jeremy, for this sales job, you know, but I also have this customer service job that he might be really good at as well.

Do you, what do you think? Would he be better in sales or in this customer service role? And sometimes when you give people an option like that with salespeople, they kind of go, Yeah, he might be better in that customer service role. And that's, you know, because everybody who's a reference is going to want to help the person, but this is sort of a nice redirect that they can do without really kind of giving it up on poor ol Jeremy here.

Ryan: I love that. I love that. I mean, that is just so practical. Just asking a simple question like that and getting people to give you that honest answer. And the admin work piece is great because we don't want them in front of their CRM. We don't want them doing research and LinkedIn and all this other stuff. That's admin work. We want them smiling dialing and building relationships and those kinds of things. So

Adam: Yeah, I mean, who would you rather have, a salesperson who was like, talking to more people but had no data in CRM, or a salesperson who was talking to less people and had more data in CRM? I mean, let's be practical here, you know?

Ryan: Sure. So when it comes to sales teams and building sales teams, is there something, is there like a big mistake you see happen a lot when it comes to hiring these salespeople that if people would just stop that, they'd get such better results?

Adam: Well, you know, I've hired hundreds of salespeople in my career, and, you know, I think that you have to understand that it's not always gonna work out and that's part of the deal. You know, and like you said, salespeople are going to come in, they're going to do a great job interviewing, and so what I've been doing as I've, you know, become a little bit more experienced with this is I'm very intense on measuring the steps between the processes.

You know, so from opening to solution development to quoting to closing, and I want to, I have an expectation for my business, and you should probably have an expectation for your business about the percentage of what, you know, how many quotes you're going to win? How many conversations do you need to have a quote? And if you knew that, then you could tell whether your salespeople are doing well, or they're just being lucky.

You know, so in my model, if your win rate is 80%, you're being lucky, you know, because, you know, there's a problem in that, you know? Like you're not developing enough relationships, you're not having enough meetings, you're not getting enough quotes out if you're closing 80% of the deals. And so if you have in your mind's eye or software to help you with that, you know, you could say, Oh, yeah, Jeremy, not really doing a good job because he's not getting enough proposals out.

You know, before you get to the point where he's, you know, not sold anything for six months. You know, so that, you know, if you have that kind of model in place, you're still gonna make mistakes, but it'll show you where the challenges are as you're going through it. So listen, I believe in the behavioral interviewing process and all of that kind of stuff, too but I'm just saying, if you hire five salespeople, one of them is not going to work out, guaranteed.

Jeremy: And they say success is going from failure to failure, right? So the faster we go from failure to failure, the faster we can succeed, so

Adam: I just try not to make the same mistakes over and over. That's my whole thing.

Jeremy: I think it's going from failure to failure, not back into the same failure. That's the issue, right? So let's jump into these four parts. These are pretty interesting. So in the opening section, obviously, you're calibrating your team and you've hired hundreds of salespeople, what are some interview questions that you like to use to see if they're going to be good at the opening section?

A Crucial Awareness of How to Make it Happen

Adam: Well, I always want them to tell me about a specific account that they managed to get into, you know, and how they got into it. And, you know, often the salesperson will be like, Well, you know, we sold this big deal at General Motors and blah, blah, blah. And you're like, Well, okay, great. Let's just kind of back it up for a second. Who, you know, who did you talk to, at General Motors to get this thing going?

And if they're not like, Well, you know, I did a little bit of research and I felt like this was the right person or I knew a guy that knew a guy or, you know, like, you want to see them kind of being scrappy and figuring out how they get into that. I mean, unless you're, you know, spending millions of dollars on marketing to generate leads for them, which I'm assuming you're not, you need somebody who's going to be able to kind of worm their way into the discussion. And so that's what I like to see, some awareness of how to make that happen. And I don't really care how, you know, because it's the result is what I'm really looking for.

Jeremy: Very good. And then when we move from the opening, so the opening section you're really looking at, do they have the tenacity and the ability to go out there and kind of dig when it's not being handed to them. That's really what you're looking for there.

Adam: Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, you know, we could hire a different group of people to just take, answer the phone and take the orders. But that isn't the group of people that we're hiring, I don't think.

Jeremy: No. So then we move to, your next step was solution development. Is that correct?

Adam: Yeah. So I really want the salesperson to explain the customer problem to me. Like, what was the pain? What was the real issue? Not just like, oh, they needed a new HVAC system. I'll just, you know, run with that example for a little bit. It's more like well, you know, it wasn't really you know, regulating the temperature properly, employees were getting sick, you know, they had shortages, they weren't able to do it.

Like what, yeah, they needed a new something at their business, but what was the business problem that they were missing out on? Because if we as salespeople can really understand the pain behind whatever they're trying to do, we can make sure we've got the right solution to help the outcome, not just the thing that they're asking us for. And so I'm looking for that second layer of insight.

Jeremy: Perfect. And then your third part of the series was what?

Adam: Well, we talked about opening and, you know, kind of getting in the door. We talked about solutioning. And then the third part is really being able to craft the right solution for that which is ultimately coming up with a proposal or quote. And what I'm looking for here is, you know, most purchase decisions these days are being made by multiple people. And so I'm really looking for how they discuss that with multiple people or got consensus at a company to make that happen. Because even, you know, if somebody comes in and tells you they just met with the CFO and they, you know, sold them this X, Y and Z thing, probably not true.

There's probably other influencers and if they're not showing awareness of that, that's a red flag for me in the sales process. I'm looking for how do they navigate that, how do they make that happen. I mean, maybe, you know, if you're in car sales, it's, you know, talking with the spouse or parents or something like that, but I want to, you know, really understand that they're not just kind of a salesperson who's just going to hit a hammer, you know, on a nail over and over again until they get something done. I'm looking for a little bit more finesse in today's world.

Jeremy: Great. And then the next thing in the closing, what are you looking for from their ability?

Adam: Well, I'll tell you, what I used to look for, which I don't think I'm allowed to look for anymore, which is their W2. So I don't know where you guys are based in Massachusetts, we are no longer allowed to ask people for their W2. So I usually just ask people to, you know, give me a table their performance over the years because I want to see 107, 111, 120%, you know, performance over time, you know? And that's really what I'm looking for there to be honest with you.

Jeremy: I love asking the question around like, hey, so we got a couple different ways to structure the pay here. We can offer you 75,000 in salary, and 3% on all of your sales, or we can offer you no guarantee and 15% on your sales. Which one do you want? And I'm looking for the person to go aggressive on me, right? They're like, well, this one doesn't have a cap. I can make, you know, that tells you how confident, how hungry they are, you know? So it's interesting what different markets and the kind of questions you have to create to get to the same solution, right?

Adam: Right. No doubt.

Jeremy: Yeah. So now we have a team and we're clear that we're gonna get this person we're getting ready to hire, they're, we're comfortable with their opening, their solution development to crafting the solution, closing it. And I'm sure that you have outlined metrics around this for each of those sections.

And so if we're going to onboard them, now we're bringing them onto our team and we want to adapt them like, to your technology that you offer or to whatever spreadsheet, however, we're going to keep track of it. What are some suggestions to getting, creating that clarity from day one so that salesman walks in the door and they're successful, not only for your purpose, but for their purpose? Because quite honestly, we want to see them be successful.

Keeping Track of the Right Metrics

Adam: Yeah. So I mean, I'm very focused on activity. And so, you know, like, it's, I know it's not true that, you know, just because you make more telephone calls doesn't mean you're going to sell more. Just because you have more meetings doesn't mean you're going to sell more. But I believe that if you don't have those meetings and you don't make those phone calls, you're going to sell less, right? And so I need to see that activity to make sure that everything's working. And so in my sales team, I'm looking for 10 to 15 meetings per week for my salespeople. I'm looking for, you know, 20ish telephone calls a day to support that.

I'm looking for 10 text messages, SMS messages being sent, I'm looking for something like 40 emails to go out. So I'm looking, I've got a dashboard that I look at, you know, to see the monitoring of that for the sales team. And that'll give me an early indication that something's not right in the sales process. It could be perfectly fine because, you know, we all have these situations where you're like, oh, caterpillar needed me all day to be doing this. And that's great. You know, that could be a really great opportunity for me, but it needs to be something like that for me to feel comfortable.

A lot of us have field-based sales teams, you know, so you have one, you know, one lady in San Diego who's doing sales for you and, you know, the worst feeling in the world is to be like, what did she do all day? You know, what was that? You know, I hate that feeling, you know? And so, you know, so that, you know, that measuring those metrics. Doesn't have to be on a daily basis. It could be on a weekly basis.

I wouldn't want it to be on a monthly basis. You know, but what are they doing to make sure they're doing that? And, and by the way, Jeremy, I think it's super important the sales team knows that these metrics are important, so that you educate them on it and they want to have those number of meetings because they know, hey, if I don't have those 10 face to face meetings, I'm not going to get out my three quotes for the week. And I need 12 quotes in the month to make my number. You know, like they need to understand the relationship between the activity and the quotes and the closing, you know?

Jeremy: Absolutely. And it's been my experience is working with these teams that if they are hitting the activities and they're not seeing the results, then we just work on finessing their skill set during those conversations or during those meetings so that we can up that. That's easier to, not easier, but if, now we have a very constructive way of growing their abilities and their closing and it's not just kicking them in the rear and tell them to get to work harder.

Adam: Yeah. Oh, by the way, it might not be the sales team's fault. You know, so we had a situation at Spiro where my percentage of deals that were going to proposal was low. It wasn't what it was supposed to be. And we were still closing the right number, but the number of proposals was low. And it didn't make any sense to me and so we went through this process of trying to figure out what was going on.

And it turned out that we were not doing a good job in asking customers about their pain. We were too focused on our solution and pushing that out at them. And so we reeducated the sales team on some very classic pain probes to be asking, you know, prospective customers about what was going on in their business to see if we might be able to help them with those things instead of just saying, hey, there's all this great stuff for you. And, you know, we went through a process of educating and training the team on that. And then yes, that surely showed.

Like, our connection with prospects went up, they were giving us the kind of insights that we could give them a proposal to help them with. And it kind of corrected. And it took a while, but we were able to course-correct because we saw that metric off. And it wasn't the sales team. I mean, most salespeople want to do the things that are going to make sales happen. If you say, Hey, I think we need to do this. Let's give it a try. I think that they're pretty gung ho with that, you know? So it might be you and not them.

Ryan: I love how you were able to take the metrics and just the data in the dashboard that you had and say, Hey, wait a minute, there might be something underlying that isn't about activity. And you were actually able to dig into it and find that out and make that adjustment so that you could get the results you were looking for.

Adam: Yeah, I mean, this is the whole thing with ghosting. So like, you know, ghosting is not just a dating phenomenon, you know, it's a sales phenomenon, right? And so like, prospects aren't getting back to you. They're not getting back to me. I don't understand why they're not. Well, because you did a sucky job on the last time you talked to them and they don't want to talk to you. Like, that's why nobody's getting back to you. Obviously, you didn't like, do the right thing there. So let's figure out what that thing was.

Oh, I've got an idea. Why don't we pull up the transcript of your conversation with them and review it? And let's take a look at it. It turns out that you were just talking about yourself the whole time. You know, and you thought it was a great call, but it turns out the prospect must not have because they're not getting back to you. So maybe you should learn from that. That's the kind of thing that we do internally. So

Ryan: Go it. I think it's fantastic. And Spiro helps with that. Like, helps sales teams be able to uncover those issues, if you will, inside the organization when the right activities aren't being done correctly.

Adam: Exactly. So you got to measure, in my view, you got to measure the steps and see what the conversion is. And if you have one rep who's doing a really great job at converting things through, examine what they're doing, right? Like in detail, you know, and then apply that, teach the rest of the team how to do it. And you can do that by going on ride alongs with the rep, you know, listening in on their phone calls, interviewing their customers after. Or if you had software that just did that for you, you could look at the transcript, you could listen to the call, you could know it. And, you know, they're all great ways to go depending upon your style, I guess.

Ryan: I love that. And that's a great segue into this because you do have some pretty incredible software, really helps sales teams get the results that they're looking for. Tell us a little bit about how they can learn more about the software. And I think you even have a free offer for our listeners as well. Is that correct?

Adam: We do, we do. So my company is called Spiro, and it comes from the Latin word spirare, which means to breathe. And so we'd like aspiration, and we're trying to breathe new life into terrible sales software. So that's our mission. So it's spiro.ai. SPIRO.ai. We do use non-scary artificial intelligence to do the work that we do, which is just a very fancy way of saying that the software listens to phone calls and reads emails. And, you know, we have something, we publish a regular blog once or twice a week about sales tips, because our mission, you know, in addition to killing this terrible CRM stuff is to really help salespeople.

And so we have consolidated our best blogs into something that I call the 44 best sales tips of all time. You know, and that is available for free on our website. You don't even have to give us your email or anything like that. If you want to download that and, you know, see some tactics about how to get meetings with anybody or, you know, the best email follow-ups or don't do these five things when you're in a sales call, this is the kind of content that we're really focused on at Spiro. Very practical advice.

Ryan: That's great. Yeah. And I've taken a look at the blog and I can vouch for that as well. Some really good things in there. Because what I've learned is a lot of times when we're looking for salespeople to get better at their craft or to be able to get better results, we don't want them burying their nose in books and blogs, like we want to get right to it. What we need to get results and move on. So thank you so much, Adam. I've really enjoyed the conversation today. I've enjoyed having you as a guest. And for those of you listening that want to check this out, SPIRO.ai. Great resources, great tips and some great software. Thanks again, Adam.

Adam: Right on. Nice talking with you guys.

Jeremy: Thank you so much, Adam.

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