Blue Collar Culture

Business Results the Old Fashioned Way

Allen Plunkett | Building an Effective Team

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One of the biggest challenges of running a business is finding good people. With the right team in place, you can experience exponential growth.

The first step to attracting the best employees, says Phoenix Staff founder Allen Plunkett, is having your company culture dialed in. He explains how to create an authentic culture that inspires current team members and attracts the best new candidates – while helping the business meet financial goals.

Allen shares plenty of other hiring, human resources, and recruiting tips you won’t hear from most experts in this industry, including…

  • How to write an effective job description
  • Why hiring is a group effort
  • An elegant way to quit that employees and bosses love
  • The value of an “outsider’s perspective” in new employees·       The inevitability of company culture and how to best influence its direction

Listen now…

Mentioned in this episode:

Transcript

Ryan Englin: Welcome to the Blue Collar Culture Podcast. I'm your host Ryan Englin and I am here with my co-host, Jeremy Macliver. Welcome back, Jeremy.

Jeremy Macliver: Hey, ready to get going?

Ryan: Yeah. Today we're joined by a very special guest, Allen Plunkett. Allen loves helping people grow in their careers. It's always been his goal to stay connected with the best and brightest, help them grow their careers and their own network. When he worked at PetSmart, he enjoyed employing people and watching them develop into managers and directors. And as the owner of Phoenix Staff, he simply wants to build a respected firm where his employees, clients and candidates feel they're being listened to. Allen, thank you so much for joining us this morning.

Allen Plunkett: I'm honored to be here. I appreciate the invitation.

Ryan: So you've got a really unique background for our listeners. And I really want to touch on that because your focus is actually working with white collar job seekers and helping them get placed with IT firms. Do I have that correct?

Allen: You do.

Ryan: So that's a lot different than what our listeners are going to be exposed to. So can you share with us some of the challenges, some of the things that you see going on in that industry so that we can see how they relate?

Common Challenges in the Staffing Industry

Allen: I've always told people that I feel like I am in white collar clothes, but I'm a blue collar guy. So, you know, certainly glad that you and I found each other, Ryan, and excited to be on Blue Collar Culture. It certainly fits me. And I would say it's, you know, it's one of those things as I was talking to you the other day and as I talked to my clients, you know, everybody talks about how to define culture and, you know, certainly within the technology industry.

And when we see what's coming out of Silicon Valley, and everybody's trying to be, you know, Silicon Hills or Silicon Slopes or, you know, you look around the country, everybody's trying to mimic or mirror what's happening there, or what has happened there over, you know, a few decades.

And, you know, my advice always is to be yourself, and define your culture by what you want it to be defined as versus trying to mimic, copy or replicate something that, number one, is probably near, if not completely impossible to replicate and two, may not be true to yourself or true to your interests, desires, or long-term goal and strategy as you build your company. So those are conversations that I have with people be it employers or employees every day.

Ryan: So is culture really important to finding good people?

Allen: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's a very important thing. And it's funny because, you know, as the three of us, you know, attend different networking events and talk to a variety of people, I mean, you'll hear people, and I see it on LinkedIn all the time too, you'll hear people say that culture is a fable or culture is fake, or, you know, how do you really define culture? You know, I think as leaders, you know, all of us have recognized the fact that not only is culture a very real thing, but you can have micro-cultures within the broader scope of your organization.

And unless you really help put that on some sort of rail or some sort of track and help to guide or help to, you know, lead your individual contributors or your people through whatever you're trying to accomplish as it relates to culture or outcomes or goal setting or process or anything like that, then it will define itself. So if you don't purposely or intentionally try to define it, there will be something that ends up defining it for you. And I'd rather try to have some level of control over it than not, personally.

Jeremy: So Allen, you mentioned that, you know, you've seen people trying to be something that are not and you can, you even at an event, you can tell what's really going on in their culture. Can you give me some examples, or give our audience some examples of some times you've seen it where they were trying to be something that they weren't? What kind of results they were seeing?

Identifying and Dealing With Company Blind Spots

Allen: Yeah, I'd struggle maybe to come up with a very specific recent example but I can tell you, I would say the broader sense I get, and it's funny because I talked to a lot of HR people. I think all three of us talked to a lot of HR people all the time. And there's, you know, there's blind spots that all of us have. And there's blind spots that companies overall have. And I guess dealing with organizations that maybe have a lot of tenure on their team.

Let's say they have average tenure of 10 plus years, and they're looking to bring in outside perspective, and they're saying we really want to hire somebody or we really want to hire a team of people that can come in and help break, you know, whatever this current problem is that we're having.

We want them to come in and break it down for us and help us really understand how we can get over the hump. Maybe they're trying to grow revenue, or maybe they're trying to open in a new market or, you know, they're trying to launch a new product, whatever that goal is. They believe that by bringing in an outsider, that's going to help, you know, remove that clog that they have.

And then they bring in that outsider or they bring in that team of outsiders and the recommendations are made and they're like, you know what, we kind of don't want to do that. So they will get advice from somebody else. Because that doesn't seem like the best advice. And that happens all the time. I mean, you know, you bring in an outsider, you bring in somebody new to the team and you're saying, we'd rather you come in and help us, you know, solve this problem or, again, launch this new product and that's why you were hired and that's why we were looking for your expertise.

But often invariably, what happens is that person will get persuaded by the rest of the folks to fall in line and do what the rest of the team is doing versus that one individual being able to persuade or convince others to follow, you know, that contrarian view or that new view or that new perspective that they bring to the table. And to me, that's just, you know, you have that defined culture. And unless you're willing to really break it down and say, This is a blind spot for us and we have to stop conforming.

We have to stop convincing others to do it our way. We really need to, you know, think about this in a different way in order to, you know, unclog the system, they're never going to get over that hump. And those are the kinds of things that I think are probably the most relevant, the most prevalent that I see where it's just, you know, it's a persistent, ongoing blind spot that people aren't aware of that stunts their growth or limits your ability to get past whatever it is, or trying to get past.

Ryan: So Allen, that's an interesting perspective coming from someone who owns a staffing agency because what I heard you say in there, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that culture is really important, but there's a lot of resistance into becoming intentional about it. Is that accurate?

Allen: Very much so. Very much so. Yeah, I think it's human nature to think we want one thing but really, at the end of the day, we've determined that the way we're doing things right now is better. We're creatures of habit.

Ryan: So a lot of our listeners, they've probably got some sort of experience with a staffing agency. And a lot of the people that I speak with, they don't have good things to say about staffing agencies.

Allen: Sounds about right.

Ryan: So, in your experience, how involved should the agency be? Or how involved do you get when talking to people about the, you know, companies about the right fit and the right culture and those kinds of things? Can you elaborate on that a little bit?

Allen: Yeah, I would say we oftentimes probably get too involved. We have had occasion, and I used two very similar scenarios that had two completely different outcomes to describe this. We had one situation in one of our offices, we operate in Phoenix, Las Vegas and Austin, Texas. And in one of our offices, we had a situation where a candidate who we put to work wanted to resign. We had the same situation almost around the exact same time in another one of our locations. A candidate that we put to work wanted to resign. Now, anytime that happens, you have a handful of choices.

The choice that we always take is, look, we appreciate that you called us, we would love to work with you again, but this is what you need to do in order for anyone to make that happen on our team. You need to go to your boss, who is the person likely that we put you to work with, and you need to tell them why you want to leave, that you want to leave, that you're interested in making a move and that you want to call us and have us help you make that move. Now what that's going to do is that's going to start a series of dominoes that are going to fall.

Number one, you're not going to get fired as a result of that. You know, I think a lot of people assume that if they say I'm thinking about quitting that they're going to get fired. And I've literally never seen that happen in 21 years of doing this. I've literally never seen that happen. So I think that's a false sense of I'm going to get fired if I tell people I'm going to quit. But when they go to their boss and they say, Look, I'm looking to leave, typically, the boss will say, What can I do to create an environment by which you want to stay?

If they're worth keeping. Or they may say, Okay, what can we do to help transition? Or can I introduce you to people? You know, there's some pie in the sky things that I believe that don't always happen. But one thing I know has never happened in my 21 years is the person hasn't been walked out and told to not return. They're just outing themselves and they're saying, Look, I'm unhappy and I'd rather you know about it then for me to just talk at the water cooler and let other people know I'm not happy.

Usually, that lifts a great cloud. So in the one scenario, the person talked to their boss, their boss called me and said, What are you doing? And I said, Look, I'm just trying to get a conversation going. A conversation happened, 90 days went by, they tried to resolve it. They weren't able to resolve it. The boss called me and said, Look, I don't think we're going to be able to solve it. He's great. I'll give him a great recommendation. Please work with him, help him transition to somewhere else. And we did.

Scenario two, the person did not have that conversation and I said, Okay, well, we can't work with you. He ended up getting an offer from another company. He resigned, and then he got a counteroffer. Now, in that scenario, when he resigned, I called the boss and I said, Look, just so you know, they reached out to us, we decided not to work with them. I didn't call you because they were not comfortable with me calling you. But I knew that was happening and I wanted to make you aware of that fact. What that did was that started a whole different conversation.

Then they got together as a collective and they said, Look, we need to make sure that people are comfortable coming to us. We need to make sure that our team of employees is comfortable coming to us when they want to quit rather than us being in the situation where we're now having to counteroffer people. We'd rather know in advance so that we can figure out how to fix what's broken rather than throw money at a problem. Two very similar situations on the front end to very different outcomes. But again, the result of having conversations that a lot of people are uncomfortable having.

Ryan: And I love both those examples. One of the things Jeremy and I talk a lot about is being open and honest and just having good real conversation with your team, letting them know that it's okay to come and talk to you. As someone who does placements a lot, is that something realistic? Is that something that you feel companies can do on their own? Or do they need someone like you or someone like one of those outside experts you talked about earlier to really make that happen?

Allen: I think it's a combination. You know, I think there's a lot of folks in leadership who are very uncomfortable with those kinds of conversations and there certainly are a lot of employees who are uncomfortable with those conversations. And again, you know, I may live in a utopia where these conversations happen and people can dislodge what's slowing them down. I know that. I know, you know, I can sometimes be an idealist and not a realist. And there's a lot of people, you know, who are working, you know, in jobs that are hourly jobs and jobs where maybe there's an abundance of available talent.

And if they were to have conversations like this, maybe they would have an outcome that's different than what I've described. And in those situations, I would say it's probably best to stutter step your way through it, rather than go directly to your boss or your boss's boss or, you know, the owner of the company. But it is good to, at the very least, and I kind of started this way, if you are hell-bent on resigning and you say, look, I need to resign this position and go somewhere else, at the very least make your exit interview worthwhile.

At the very least don't accept the counteroffer because if you've determined that this is not where you should be and you go find another job and then you go and resign, during that exit interview, if you have one or request one, if you don't air all the dirty laundry. Say everything that you need to say and get it all off your chest because you are trying to help those left behind. It's like camping. I don't know if you guys camp or not, but you always try to leave your campsite better than you found it. And that to me is the way to exit an organization.

So if you're in that position where I need to exit, but I'm not willing to have the conversation that Allen just said I should have, then resigned and then have that conversation and say look, these are things that I don't think this company is aware are problems. And this is what I'm leaving this organization, and this is what you could do to make it better for those I'm leaving behind.

Ryan: Yeah, I think there's some great stuff in there if our listeners are having any problems with turnover, employees leaving whether or not they're having the conversation, some great lessons in there and just about being open and honest. And I liked how you said, just kind of stumbled through that conversation. Just learn how to do it, learn how to get comfortable with it. Most people today are really struggling to find good people.

And I know that you have a unique way of helping companies do that being that you're a staffing agency. But what are some of the things that you're seeing out there? What are some of the ways that people can, that companies can go find good people, ultimately keep them but how do they find them? Like, how do they get started with that process?

The Importance of a Proper Job Description

Allen: Yeah, I think and, you know, one of the things that you and I have talked about a lot, Ryan, is the way in which you are advertise your jobs. You know, I think people miss the target when they describe their company as, you know, we've got an amazing culture. We've got ping pong tables, we have free food every Friday, you can wear shorts to work. You know, all those things are, they don't define a culture. You know, what defines a culture is your ability to retain people, your ability to hire and retain good people, productive people, people that are helping you drive towards your business goals and their own personal goals.

And I've had experiences very recently where I've had people on my team who, you know, are just not that. And I want desperately for them to find what makes them tick and find an opportunity that would make them happier. Rather than, you know, have some sort of shallow or vapid kind of experience here, you'll find what you're looking for elsewhere because you certainly aren't finding it here. But I think it all starts on the very front end. It all starts, in my personal opinion, with a job description. You know, and if you say, look, we're not like other staffing agencies. We are going to have conversations that challenge you.

We are going to have you talk to your co-workers and let them know that you didn't appreciate the fact that they called a candidate that you had just called a week before. And we don't have ownership of people. We are very collaborative. If you're looking for an environment that's metrics-based and cutthroat and, you know, we're all in this to, you know, make money on every single person that we put to work, this is the wrong place for you. You know, we are going to put people to work that we don't make money on.

And it's just because it's part of what we do in our role of guiding and advising, helping coach people through their career moves. We may not make money on every single person and you need to be okay with that. But that's not an environment for everyone. And I'd rather put it in my job description and have somebody come in here and say, Well, wait a minute, I didn't know this was the case. Well, it's right there. It's right there in black and white. We had a conversation about it. And we actually asked you a few questions during the interview about it. I think if you put that on the table, it's better.

Ryan: A lot of our listeners are going to be business owners who they're the ones writing the job descriptions, maybe they've got someone in HR who really wants to stick with a very traditional job description, doesn't want to put all of that what I call expectation setting inside of the job description. What are some practical tips you have for helping them either overcome a block with HR or being creative enough to do that themselves? What are some things that you could give our listeners so they could go add those types of things to their job description?

Allen: So I would say the number one thing that I find, when I talk to people about the job description, the number one thing that I'm always surprised by is, I will ask them who is in this role today? And have they read the job description? And a lot of times they say no, they haven't. I would say 80 plus percent of the time, they would say, No, you know, Ted has not read this job description.

And I'm like, Well, if Ted is the example of who you want to hire again, if you want more Ted's on your team, not only have Ted read the job description but have someone shadow Ted and write down everything he's doing for the next couple of weeks to make sure that that job description fits what Ted does. Because if that job description was written and it attracted Ted, it may have morphed into something completely different now that he's doing it.

And we need to know what those differences are because it's no longer relevant and it's no longer the right bait to throw into the water to catch the fish that you're looking for. So number one is who's performing well, and who do you want to replicate? And then number two is really having Ted involved in it. You know, what are some things that you're doing that aren't in this job description? Or what are some things that are in this job description that you have never done since you've been here?

Jeremy: Great points. And it's fun to hear it from what most people think white collar. But, you know, like you said, really, so much of it is blue collar. What I find is a lot of times people are afraid to be that open and honest, because they one of two things. One, they're not exactly sure they define exactly what they want. Or the other is they just can't imagine anybody would want anything different.

And so sometimes it's they're very hard-charging numbers metrics-based, which is not what you just described. I think that everybody's that way. That's what of course that's what every employee is going to want. And so they feel like, Well, why should I bother with that? Well, others are more like what you just described. It's you guys are. And they're like, well, isn't this how we really take care of our customer?

And so it's really cool to get to see different leadership teams function in that way and really get clear on well, this is the kind of employee I want. And it's not everybody out there. It's just like when you in marketing where if you get really specific on who you're after, seem to find more opportunities than when you were just shotgunning the whole market. And so it's really exciting hearing what you're saying, from that perspective because of the fears that they have just exposing, hey, this is who we are, this is what we want. And you're either going to fit it or not.

Allen: Yep. That's very, that's a much more succinct way of saying everything I just said. I like your description better.

Ryan: Jeremy is good at that. And it's being recorded so we'll be able to share that with people. I had another question about finding people. You know, this idea of being able to really pinpoint who we are looking for, and attracting the right kind of people. And that's a very broad definition of what the right people are. But let's say that they get this job description, all cleaned up, and they've talked to their team and they all buy in. Yeah, that's exactly why I'm here. This is accurate. What do they do next? Because I hear a lot from people, Craigslist doesn't work anymore. I can't find good people on Craigslist. Indeed only sends me garbage. Like, what do we do next to get out there and find some good people?

Diversify Your Approach to Hiring

Allen: Sure. Well, I think it's like anything else. I mean, you've got to enlist the help of every single person, every single member of your team to talk about it. You know, it's like, I serve on the board of a nonprofit here, it's called New Pathways for Youth. And we're constantly talking about how can we do a better job of fundraising? And to me, fundraising is exactly like hiring.

You have to communicate how excited you are. I mean, you know, I don't know if you guys are movie watchers, but when you go see a great movie, you can't tell enough people how great that movie was. And you're talking about that movie and you're telling people about that movie and Hey, did you see that movie? Man, that movie is so good. You know, it's going to win an Oscar. That actor is going to win an Oscar, whatever. But when you're hiring people, it's like, you know, just go ahead and post it.

Let's see what happens. And sometimes your team in its entirety, doesn't even know that you're looking to hire somebody. Sometimes your, you know, three members of your team, I mean, a lot of 200. If everyone knows, and you get everyone talking about it, just like they talk about the movie they saw last Friday night, your chances of being able to get traction, your chances of being able to get more people looking at that job, go up exponentially.

And you don't have to pay to get people to talk about it. You know, does that help? Is that an incentive? Absolutely. But I've had as many people telling me, Look, I'm doing this because I want to help you and I want to help that person. I'm not doing this because you're going to write me a check for $200. So, oftentimes, it's counterintuitive to say if you tie money to it, people are less inclined to help you because they feel icky. You know, and they're like, I'm going to refer my friend because I want my friend to work right alongside me.

I'm not going to refer my friend because I want 100 bucks. Now, a lot of times people want the hundred bucks. So you know, don't remove it and think that you're going to be okay. But, you know, it's not the end all be all of incentives. It's more about, do we have an organization that is built around, I would really like my friends to work here too because it's such a great place to be. So, you know, it's, you know, I use the analogy of fishing a lot in recruiting. It's just, it's trying to cast as many lines in the water as you can and using as much different bait as you can.

So, does Craigslist work? Sometimes. Does Indeed work? Every now and then. Does LinkedIn work? Sure, but not all the time. You know, it's, they're all different platforms. They're all different formats. You know, reaching out to the university system, reaching out to the community college system, reaching out to other employers who do what you do, is also a very unique approach. I mean, I tell people who are looking, like, let's say they're looking for a job as a, I don't know, a field technician.

Okay, so you're hiring. You're trying to hire 25 field technicians and you've got a competitor, even in your own town, who hires a whole bunch of field technicians as well. If you were to reach out to them and say, hey, look, I know you guys hire a lot of our people, and we hire a lot of yours. It just happens. What if we were to, you know, pair up with one another? And when you guys go through a hiring spree and say, you get 100 applicants, and you hire 50, would you send us the resumes of those people that you don't look at?

Or those people that you didn't get to those people that you decided not to hire for one reason or another? And we'll do the same. We'll reciprocate. We'll help you as well. I think that's an often overlooked pool of talent that not only helps, you know, both ships rise at the same time, but, you know, if you're in an industry like mine where there's enough business to go around, what's the harm? You know, you're trying to employ people and trying to grow your own business. So what's the harm in sharing back and forth?

Ryan: Collaboration. I love that. That is great. So you gave a lot of great tips on what to do and I just, I love it. Get is many lines in the water as possible. Don't just put all your eggs into Indeed or Craigslist or even employee referrals. Like, that's just one of the tools. What are some things that you would say don't ever do when looking for good people? Like what are the things that people need to stop doing what they're doing today or things that they should stay away from that might be a fad, or something that you know other people are testing out but doesn't really work?

Allen: Stop going just one track. So like we said, get as many lines in the water as you can. And so don't what we in our industry call post and pray. You know, don't just post a job out there and just stare at your inbox waiting for a flood of candidates to come in. Don't lie in your job description. Don't inflate, you know, who you are or how great the company is or anything like that. Don't cut and paste somebody else's job description

Ryan: That never happens. Don't know what you're talking about. Never.

Allen: Don't use a job posting from 10 years ago. You know, we see that all the time, literally all the time. You know, craft something new. And I would say number one, I should have started with this, don't not follow up with people. You know, I would say the number one way to kill your ability to hire people is by posting a lot of jobs and never getting back to the people who applied to those jobs. You're just going to be seen as a troll.

You know, you're constantly posting jobs but never getting back to people. I mean, that's a surefire way to alienate and get people to say I would, why would I want to work for you? You know, you either didn't get back to me after I interviewed, you didn't get back to me after I applied, you didn't get back to me after I talked to your internal recruiter or whatever. That's a surefire way to end up dead in the water.

Ryan: It's funny, there's some irony in that because I hear from employers all the time, job seekers, they apply and then they don't return my calls or they no show me on interviews and hear all this. And then when we flip it, we hear from job seekers, the employers never get back to me. They don't tell me what the next step is. And so, like both sides are feeling the same pain in that. And I do a lot of research into employee experiences, just how do you get people engaged during the recruiting process, and it's something like 70% of job seekers never hear from the employer for a job they apply on. It's insane.

Allen: Yeah. That's a crazy high number.

Ryan: And you could stand out a ton just by replying to somebody and saying, Hey, thanks for applying. We got your application. We'll be in touch. And then actually, like you said, follow through and be in touch with them. So, for a lot of growing companies, one of the big challenges is finding the time to do this. They're already short on people. Typically, the leaders are getting involved in the business in ways they shouldn't because they're just short on staff.

So what are some ways or what are some techniques that you've seen that people could do these things and find the time to do them without just saying, hey, just make the time because it's easier said than done. What are some simple ways they can actually make sure they follow up and keep track of all these applicants and, you know, create that great experience for them?

Communicating With Your Applicants

Allen: Sure. Well, one thing we do, I mean, we try to do this and, you know, I would say we're decently successful at it is, you know, if we post, let's say, we post a help desk job or desktop support job, we could get upwards of 200 candidates for that, you know, for that role applying. You know, and if we post five of those, or we post, you know, 10 of those, I mean, the numbers just go crazy.

So getting back to each and every one of those has to involve some form of automation because we just, we don't have time and there's no way to create time. So what I tell my team is, let's automate a response. Let's say we received it, let them know at least their application was received. And please, if you don't hear from us within the next 72 hours or whatever time frame we set, reach back out to us.

So I like to assign things to that person because to your point, there are people who just blindly apply, forget they applied, and even if you send that email they don't get back to you within that 72 hours. So just by nature of sending that and putting a task on them, you're filtering down to a quantity that you can then manage. Because let's say we get 200 applicants, we send that email to 200 people, as we're going through filtering ourselves and saying, okay, of these 200, these 68 are really well qualified for what we're looking for, so let's start calling those 68 or emailing them something a little bit different than what we first emailed them.

And then the others are receiving that email of get back to us within 72 hours. The majority of them don't. You know, majority of them are moving on and saying, Okay, that was automated, I'm not going to deal with that. So they don't come back to us anyway. So there's a filtering process happening as a result of, you know, that automation. And as much as I don't like automation as being the answer, it has to be a part of the answer. You know, you still need human involvement, but you have to compliment it.

Ryan: Well, and I think we, I think what you just described it, we don't even need to invest in automation tools. We can just set up a template inside of Outlook and email back to those people and let them know. But I love what you said about putting the onus on the applicant. Make them take the next step if they're really interested. I think one of the biggest challenges employers deal with is the fact that job boards are really meant to be employee-centric, they support the employee. So it's really easy for me to log into Indeed, check off 20 jobs and apply for all of them and forget that I even applied with you.

So putting that onus back on the applicant is a really great way to just weed out the people that aren't too serious. So we're almost, you know, we're getting close here on time and I want to put you on the spot a little bit, Allen, because we talked a lot about job descriptions early on. And I know that for a lot of employers, that's a really big challenge, just getting that really effective job description. I mean, it's really an ad for their business. And you actually help people with that you actually have a different business that helps people with that, do you not?

Allen: I do. Yes.

Ryan: Let's talk about that just for a little bit. I'd like you to introduce it and let people know how you take a different approach to job descriptions.

Allen: Sure. So and I appreciate that. I appreciate the opportunity to talk about it a little bit, Ryan. I own a company called Jargone. It's Jargone.io with my very good friend Anthony Garone. And he and I started that as a platform for companies to submit a job description that they wanted to have rewritten or submit 200 job descriptions that they wanted to have rewritten. The goal of that organization is to, number one employ people who I believe and we all believe are underemployed, which are writers.

So giving writers an opportunity to do what they love to do and get compensated for it. It doesn't take a tremendous amount of time to write a creative job description. Like we were talking about earlier, I think where the time is spent is really determining from either the individual who's currently in the role that you're hiring for, or the manager or supervisor or director of those individuals and really getting to the bottom of what it is that makes up that human being that they're looking to hire.

And making sure to get all those details into that job description or as many of them into that job description as you can to really have the right bait on your hook to attract the right person. And it's been a passion project for a long time. It's, you know, it's something that I absolutely positively love doing. There is certainly an aspect of it that could be automated. We could create some sort of AI around it. There's organizations out there, companies out there that look at it from a linguistic perspective.

And, you know, are we using the right language to attract the type of candidate or even the diversity sort of candidate that we're looking for in this job description? So there's a burgeoning, you know, growth in the sector. But right now, it's just, it's an exciting time to be in that world because it is so incredibly difficult to find people, you know, and find the right people that you want to talk to, and that align well with what you're trying to build and who you're trying to hire.

Ryan: And I say it all the time, the right job description will make you stand out because almost nobody puts effort there. So having a fun, exciting, engaging job description can really do wonders in someone's recruiting.

Jeremy: So Allen, I want to ask maybe this job description thing. I'm looking a lot of times internally at the company and we're looking at how are we communicating inside it, building this culture, creating this environment. How do you find, you know, because every company is completely different. How do you find the best way to communicate what's really going on inside that culture and these job descriptions?

Allen: Yeah, again, I think it's, you know, I've had conversations with people about their culture, and I've said, Look, what are some things that you know, exist, but you're not easily admitting exist? Those are things that we can find a way to describe. Maybe we need to soften them because you don't want to say, you know, especially when you're contending with Glassdoor. So let's say somebody has a horrible Glassdoor review. Let's say it, you know, talks about the manufacturing department.

And it says, you know, if the manufacturing department leadership were to change, this place would be a great organization because every department outside of this has just a great reputation. You know, you go to work in accounting or HR or finance or whatever, great organizations of 10 years and happy people, but, man, you walk down to the manufacturing floor, and people are just depressed and want to leave. Calling that out in some way. You know, we recognize, I say you have to fight fire with fire.

If you know your Glassdoor reviews are bad, you call it out in the job description and say you may have read on Glassdoor that our manufacturing department is not the greatest place to be. Here's what we're doing to rectify that situation. These are some things that we've done in the last 30, 60, 90 days to address that problem. Glassdoor, you can't get beaten by Glassdoor if you face it head-on. You can if you try to sweep it under the rug and say, Well, you know, that's just sour grapes. Well, maybe. It could be, but let me show you the sour grapes and call it out myself and tell you what we're doing to try to fix it. It's important.

Jeremy: I love that. Going. I love that going completely vulnerable completely. We've been using the term calling out the ugly. Like, it's already there, just call it out. Get real with it. And it's amazing, I mean, how much when you call out here Glassdoor, you know, right now looks bad. Here's what we're doing. How much it takes the pressure out of the whole conversation. And I mean, I've seen it when you know we talked earlier about having those tough conversations with the boss. I found that once the first pen is thrown at the balloon it's like, boom, all the pressure is gone, it's popped and now we just have a real conversation.

It really gets to the bottom of it. And so it's really interesting hearing it in a job description because and when we're looking for candidates, I can see that exact same thing where let's get real, this is where we're at. And people can recognize that they get bought into a real organization because no company out there is perfect. And so one is confident enough to say we don't have it perfect and here's why we're striving for it, is very impressive and unique in this day and age.

Allen: Yeah, I agree. And it's, you know, make it part of your interview process as well. You get somebody on the phone and you say, hey, look, I don't know if you noticed that But I want to talk about it briefly. Because you get an opportunity to see people's reaction. You know, are they willing to go there with you?

Are they willing to have that kind of candor in their own conversation and say, Look, I appreciate you telling me that and I've been an organization like that before. And, you know, I'm not overjoyed about the fact that it exists here, but I am willing to join and help you solve it. Or, you know, it doesn't really scare me. You know, and I appreciate you sharing it with me and what can I do to help? You'd be surprised when you are vulnerable, how other people react to it. And again, that is often overlooked.

Jeremy: It's every time, you know, we all love when other people are vulnerable but we all hate to do it. At least I do. But every time you do it they rush to your rescue versus attack you. And you get so much more out of it. So,

Ryan: Yeah. Well, hey, we're at time and Allen, I can't believe that we're already at time. I've really enjoyed today's conversation with you and some great advice and some great tips for our listeners. As far as Phoenix Staffing goes, do you do work all over the country or is it just an Arizona?

Allen: So we're in Vegas, Austin and Phoenix. Though, we do have some customers that bring us outside of those markets for sure.

Ryan: Okay. So if some of our listeners want to get a hold of you either for staffing, or I think a really exciting service is the job descriptions, how do they do that?

Allen: So yeah. I'm pretty easily reached. I am all over LinkedIn, probably too much so. So, you know, just Allen Plunkett on LinkedIn. And phoenixstaff.com or jargone.io are ways to get plugged in and connect with me. But, you know, I'm sure though there'll be links on this podcast as well. And I'm just super honored to be on this and really appreciate the conversation you guys.

Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you again, so much. Really enjoyed it. And we'll make sure that we get those links out to everybody. But that's it for today.

Jeremy: This has been absolutely great.

Allen: I enjoyed it. I appreciate it very much, guys.

Ryan: Well that's it for today's episode. We will catch you guys next time.

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