Blue Collar Culture

Business Results the Old Fashioned Way

Bob Mulhern | All Progress Begins with Truth

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For Bob Mulhern, senior managing director brokerage operations in Arizona for Colliers International, the success of his firm – and the high esteem in which it is held by the industry – all comes down to company culture.

It’s a defined mission statement based on core values that attracts like-minded top talent and keeps those who won’t be a good fit away. In fact, Bob says he often turns away high performers who won’t take the company culture to heart.

Bob takes the time to outline in detail how he implements company culture, including the tough conversations he must sometimes have with team members who don’t “get it.”

We also talk about…

  • Recognizing effective commercial real estate brokers – if they don’t ask this… then walk away
  • His tips for having “hard” conversations with your team
  • Hiring strategies to form a team of employees that can execute your vision
  • The power of Endless Reciprocal Learning
  • Questions experienced commercial real estate brokers should ask clients
  • And more

Listen now…

Mentioned in this episode:

 

Transcript

Ryan Englin: Welcome back to another episode of the Blue Collar Culture Podcast. I'm your co-host Ryan Englin and I am here with Jeremy Macliver today.

Jeremy Macliver: Welcome back, everybody.

Ryan: So I'm really excited about today's guest. There is just a wealth of knowledge in this man and we are going to have a great conversation today about some of the things that are going on inside of our economy as it relates to business, and most particularly, how it relates to commercial real estate. So he actually runs Colliers International's 100-plus Arizona commercial real estate brokerage operations. He's co-founded a charter school. He's been a past recipient of the Phoenix Business Journal of Arizona's Most Admired Leaders. So, Bob Mulhern, welcome to the show today.

Bob Mulhern: Thank you guys so much. I'm very excited to be here.

Ryan: Now, I know that you have an extensive background in commercial real estate. And I know a lot of people have opinions about commercial real estate brokers in particular. But I think there's some myths about that. I'd love for you to share what's one of the biggest myths about commercial real estate?

Commercial Real Estate Myths

Bob: I think one of the biggest myths is that the, you know, commercial real estate is all about the sale. I think that if you get to the most successful real estate, commercial real estate brokers, it's all about the results for their clients and not just for their clients for their client's business. So if you get a very good commercial real estate broker, he's going to mainly or she's gonna mainly ask you business questions as opposed to when does your lease expire? How many square feet do you need? So I do think that some of the less sophisticated and maybe less successful commercial brokers ask the questions they ask, but I think they're really good ones really want to know how they help either an owner of property or an occupier of space, really take full advantage of that investment in real estate.

Ryan: I like what you said there, differentiating between some of maybe the newer brokers and some of the seasoned ones and asking questions about the business versus how much space do you need those kinds of things. Can you talk about that a little bit more? Give me some more examples. What are the things that we need to know about brokers, how we can tell if we're working with someone who's a little bit new or someone who's a little bit more seasoned?

Bob: So what I find is if you approach somebody and you say our lease is expiring and they start asking you again, square footage type questions or locational questions instead of saying, Well, what are you trying to accomplish with your space? And what are the biggest changes your business is going to face over the next number of years? And how's that going to change your requirement? So instead of looking for a replacement for what you have, they're going to try to help you make a good business decision on what you need going forward. I think that's how you would distinguish that and hopefully again at Colliers, that's who we try to hire and we try to train to that. But it is really important for a business to have that kind of results-focused individual helping them, otherwise, they're just going to, you know, move whatever they have to a new spot and that may or may not be what their business needs.

Jeremy: So, Bob, I'm gonna want to take this just a little bit deeper and kind of shift it because you have had some massive success, as we said in the intro that is a charter school, but let's be real, it's a very big, very prominent, top-rated charter school that you've also lead. And then your organization at Colliers is running impressively well. And so what I want to talk about is, you have all of these brokers that are providing all this great value, they're asking way more in-depth questions. But how do you build a team with that level of expertise? Because we all know it's hard to hire out there.

Bob: Right. Well, I think the key is, and I think we know this is you have to have a very clear vision of what you're trying to accomplish. And then you want to attract people to that vision, right? Or you want to repel people from it, right? You want to attract the people you want to be part of building that team. You actually want people to self-select out of it if they don't agree. So I think one of the most important things that we have is a clear vision of what we're trying to accomplish. And we really break it into both on the culture side and the professional side because, you know, you could really enjoy a culture and still not be successful. Or vice versa, you can be very successful and not fit into a culture. So I remember when I first started, I talked a lot about culture, people say, Well, you talk about that all the time. What are you talking about? So I think it's very important to again, have such a clear culture and a definition of it that people again, want to be part of it or kind of choose to go somewhere else.

Jeremy: I love that self-select in or self-select out. And I, it almost feels counterintuitive, but you really do want them going out. So I want to maybe put you on the spot a little bit here. So fair warning. I'm gonna ask you because culture is a word that's almost used too much, but then it doesn't really have a lot of meaning. So can you define culture? And maybe if it's easier, you can just define your culture. Either one.

Bob: Right. So it's easier just to say what do we mean by culture? We want a dynamic culture at Colliers. So the first thing I tell people is I want our culture together is that we're attracting people that want to strive together toward great things, okay? Now that sounds kind of vague in itself, and it is a little bit, but I say, look, if you're going to have 100 people, they're all going to have different definitions of what great things are. So it's a big challenge to meet that. So I say, Okay, so how are we going to do that on the culture side? What is going to make our culture dynamic? And by the way, you know, and we're proud of this, as well say it, you know, in ranking Arizona, we've had the best commercial real estate culture, we've been ranked number one for the last five years. And that's between not just brokers, but developers and architects and engineers and everyone. So it's really important for us. It's our leading differentiator in the market. And the number one thing we have is I say, look, if you want to come to a place and you don't want to respect and be grateful for the talent around you, this is the wrong place for you. And that's including all the support. If you're going to want to get in people's faces and try to kind of leverage your way through a day to get stuff done well, this is the wrong place because part of what we are is we are grateful for one another's talents and respectful. Secondly, to one of your myths with commercial real estate, I said, we want to be a place to win with honor. We're not here to win at any cost. And if you have to break the rules to win, we're out. I was actually recruiting someone the other day who I know works with somebody. And when I gave this example, I said, for example, the guy you work with, as you know, doesn't win with honor. And he kind of smiled and laughed because he knew he worked for somebody who wanted to win at any cost. And then the third is I'm looking for people that want to collaborate and innovate together. I call it endless reciprocal learning. And so I say that is our culture. And within that, we're all going to have these great goals that we're gonna try to strive to together.

Jeremy: You know, Bob, I love this. So, you know, you're talking about your core values. And, you know, we obviously, we teach that with all of our clients. And I just want to point out to our audience something that's really powerful about your core values and what you, how you describe that because a lot of times I see core values out there, and they're honesty, integrity, which are important, but they're hard for people to take action. And I love how you were able to look at that person and say, Well, you know that they didn't win with honor. One of the tricks I have found with this is that if your value system has a verb in it, so it causes action, it just multiplies so that win with honor, and that's masterfully done. So I'm sure you share stories about that, how it, how you win with honor, how you win without it. Can you maybe give us an example of somebody that maybe is the interview process self-selected out, got into the company self-selected out. Somebody said, Hey, you know, I'm not really liking this, you know, win with honor, collaborate, innovate together type environment. I really like a different one. You have a, I mean, the way you sound like you had something specific.

Promoting and Defending Your Company Culture

Bob: Yeah, I have lots of specific examples because part of having a great culture is not just promoting it, but it's actually defending it. And what defending it requires, if you're going to practice what you preach, is a lot of hard conversations. Because by nature, any dynamic company is going to have lots of breakdowns, right? It's just that you can't move forward and do great things unless you're bumping into each other and sometimes bumping into walls. And so every time we do that, and that involves two people and there is a conflict that arises, that is really inappropriate for this idea of being grateful and respectful of each other, I have to have a conversation and everybody knows it's coming. And I sit down with people and I've learned that, a statement I share regularly is that all progress begins with the truth with no blaming or shaming. So I make sure they know I'm not here to blame or shame them, I just need to say, truthfully what happened is you stepped over the line here and that's not going to work. And if you can't make that work, well, then you just can't work here. Because that's who we are. And it is interesting because what will happen is, every once in awhile, we'll have a broker or a team leave. And people will say, wow, you know, I can't believe those guys left. They were, you know, they were so successful. And I'll know most of those times I've had a conversation, you know, probably a month or two earlier, maybe three months because that easy to move, that basically said you need to change or you need to find a new spot. And they go find a new spot. And it can be hard because they always, you know, in our business kind of revenue and companies follow the broker. But in the long run, it's really worked well for me. And most people, actually, if you've recruited the right people, they take it and say, you know, I am really sorry. And they go in and make things right, so to speak. And the word gets around that that's the way it works here. And so, and again, no blame or shame when I talk to people. I'm like, Look, I understand how these things go. We just have to make it right. I don't focus on the breakdown, I focus on again, what we're trying to accomplish, which is, strive forward, not, you know, get into all these tussles.

Jeremy: Bob, you really have given me two different directions, two different ways. I want to ask questions right here because you just gave so much gold in this stuff. And we couldn't be more aligned on the way we think about this. So but I think I'm gonna go towards why defend it because I love that defending the culture. What I really want to dig into here is the fact that when you have that tough conversation and that person left and you said they were a high producer, obviously your sales, your revenue, your profit, all of that stuff suffered. So how can you defend or say that that's the right answer when, and ultimately the business is here to make money?

Bob: Right. Well, what I find is that when there's a move like that, right? It then causes me to go and, of course, go find replacements. so to speak, for revenue. It's a little bit of Moneyball sometimes. Sometimes replace six people with two people, sometimes two people with eight people. But you do need to service, those businesses are looking for commercial real estate services and we want to have a full range. At the same time. What I've learned is that if you don't, if I don't defend the culture, I don't really have anything else to sell that's extraordinary in the market. I mean, we have tremendous competitors. I mean this business, in Phoenix alone, there are four international companies, right? Now they're all made up of individual brokers who are in a sense, small businesses. But if I can't attract people that are really looking for what we offer, then we are going to go out of business. But what I'm finding is that more and more people are saying, you know, I can sell anywhere, I can serve, you know, owners and occupiers wherever I am. I want to be a place where I like working, I like the people I'm working around. And somehow that process actually fuels my business further. And that's really my offer, again, that striving the other two are great things. And so if I can't defend that, I really don't have a future. So it is hard because I see money walk out the door, so to speak. At the same time, it's a small price to pay in the long run for the type of talent I've been able to retain and attract because of the culture.

Jeremy: Definitely. I love the way you articulate it. It's basically a short term loss for a long term gain because you're going to pick up the people. And I actually find that the team that I have, I mean, I see client after a client goes through this. And I ask that because it's a struggle that every business owner looks at, like, wait a minute, I'm gonna get rid of this right now and it's making me money? And yes, I don't like it, but I see that when they make those tough decisions, you know, birds of a feather flock together. And so they start attracting the right ones, starts building the momentum, and even some of those, you know, mediocre producers become, if they were the right fit for the company, accelerate and become a little bit more. So love that. Let's dive into the conversation, that tough conversation because none of us like it, but we know we need to do it. Can you give us some tips into having that tough core values conversation? Culture conversation?

No Blame No Shame

Bob: Yeah. Well, it's interesting. I think the important part of that is the no blaming or shaming, I have had people say to me, I have never heard people deliver such tough comments or information to people as I do and then somehow it works out. And it's because they can tell I'm not trying to blame them or shame them at all. I'm just, this is the case. You know, these are our standards, you stepped out a line on those. And I have my choice of two things, I can either ignore that, or I can, you know, encourage you to recognize that and kind of come back in. And sometimes you have to be, there's some very specific things and usually since I'm rarely there, right? I'm not on the site usually or, you know, right, I wasn't there for the confrontation. I'll usually say what I was told, I'll give them a little bit of breathing room, is that this happened, but I'll be very specific. If there was rough language or there was raised voices, I'll say, Well, I heard this is what I heard. And usually by me not saying, you know, again, getting right in their face, like that's unacceptable. I'll say, Hey, I wasn't there. This is what I heard. It gives them a little bit of breathing room to either say, well, that's not exactly how it went. And, of course, I can't deny that but I'm making my point. My point is, is that, you know, and usually they know it was true. Usually, what happened, it just gives them breathing room to us to have a conversation because I'm not really there to look backwards as much as this just can't happen again. And that you knew if it happened again, we're gonna be sitting down again. And ultimately, we'll have to part ways if it doesn't work. And most people, I think, want to do the right thing that we attract here. And so I would say nine times out of 10, or probably 95 times out of 100, we get some positive movement on it. But there are some, you know, tough customers, and we do have over the years, you know, four and five of these conversations because they were all, you know, we're all slow learners, let's face it. And so it is something that might take some time.

Jeremy: So I'm excited to hear how you use that no blame, no shame type thing. Obviously, that's just, that's a statement, but it's in your wording too. I heard a lot of that where you're not saying, you Bob, did this. It's like, Hey, I heard this. So I think from what I'm getting there, timing is also critical on these. Like, if I bring it up six months later, like Bob, you cussed that guy out, it's a little different. So how do you handle timing?

Bob: So I'm very focused on the sooner the better after people cooled down, right? So I'm not going to get into somebody's face, like when they're hot, right? I give them time to cool down. But it's not going to be more than a day that I do that. Also, if there were two people involved and they were brokers, right, it wasn't a broker getting, you know, in the face of a support person, which is kind of an unfair battle, right? But if it's two brokers, I will demand, so to speak, that they both be in the meeting if we're going to talk about this. In other words, I'm not going to talk to one and then say that's how it happened, talk to the others that, I say no, we all got to come in the room and I'll just say, look, we're going to tell the truth with no blaming or shaming. And then somebody's voice is raised. I'm like, okay, that's not how I want it. And as you can imagine, I mean, I have some very, what I'll call ambitious, results-driven proactive people because they're 100% commission, okay? So we're talking about people that have been in this business a long time. And so the, some of the heat can return to the conversation and my job is to continue to absorb that. And then get us back to, again, we're not here to talk about all of the details of what happened as much as going forward, how are we going to make this different? And again, it's, I've, I mean, I'll tell you, I was in a meeting one time where two guys squared up and I'm like, okay, we're gonna call this, we're gonna take a break on this meeting for a couple hours and ready to come back. Because it's, these are, these can be very hard conversations. But if you don't have them, believe me, as his people know, it, just festers and it just drives talent away and it keeps good talent.

Jeremy: From my experience. What I've seen is that, while this tough conversation is hard, it's actually easier in the long run. Because right now, and, you know, the 24 hours, we've cooled down a little bit, but it's still fresh. We get over it and we grow and move on versus six months down the road, me as a leader, I've built up so much momentum about you and how this is going. And when I finally tell you something, I lose my cool. I become heated. Versus yeah, okay, just facts.

Choose Your Heart

Bob: Right So I have a saying, and I don't remember where I heard it the first time, but it's called choose your heart. And I remind people, you can either choose to not address it, okay? And let it, and let the pain of it go on indefinitely sometimes. Or you can choose the heart, which is the hard conversation. And people do it all the time. I mean, there are people out there that just choose to constantly put up with the consequences of not taking that first, making that first difficult conversation. What's happened now is the conversation has become really part of our culture where people know if something happens to like, you know, I know deep inside this thing. Oh, they're gonna, you know, have to talk to Bob. And I have less and less of those, not more and more of them. Other words, I haven't had one of those, you know, in the last Well, there hasn't been as much work in the last couple months. But I mean, I have not had to do that as much, nearly as much as I did when I first started, when I was really establishing that if you do want to challenge the culture, well then you're going to have to, we're gonna have to have a conversation every time.

Ryan: Well, and Bob, that's one of the things that I'm hearing you say here is, you have the conversation every time. And I think that's critical in setting the example and letting people know how important that culture is to you. One question I have for you. Have you ever not gotten this right and it didn't work out? And if so, what lessons have you learned from that? What changes did you make when having these conversations?

Bob: Well, I think what's interesting, one thing to remember is you'd never really know if you weren't there and you don't have all the facts if you're doing the right thing, right? You're making the best decision you can. I mean, part of leadership is making good decisions. But I think it's always important to acknowledge this because even if the end result is a positive one, doesn't even necessarily mean you did the right thing. So I'll give you an example. I had someone here who I had a very hard conversation with, and they were not happy, right? And they decided to tell a lot of people about it, including in the office, including at our different conferences, and people came to me and they'd say, you know, so and so's really got, you know, some issues and they're really kind of trashing you. And I'm like, well, maybe they're right. I mean, how do, I'm not saying I'm perfect, right? So by not, what I've learned is if I try to justify everything I do, it becomes one long justification. But if I just acknowledge Hey, I, here's the circumstances as I see them again, no blaming or shaming in my voice, and this decision I make, and they, and even I'm talking to you, I say, Wow, I'd be, I wouldn't be happy too, or, you know what, I can't believe that he's saying those things. I'm like, Well, again, I'm telling you that these are hard decisions and I don't know. What I had to eventually do after a little bit of time, I went to this individual and I said, let me tell you something, people that work here actually think I'm a pretty good guy, okay? And you're trying to convince them I'm not and it's not really reflecting very well on you, okay? In my opinion. And so, I've let you air your concerns, you know, to everyone who'll listen, and you know, that. I haven't gotten in the way. But now you have to decide. You have to decide if you want to work here and quit complaining, or if you want to go somewhere else. And he was a good producer. He decided to stay and he is now one of our top producers year over year over year. And it's because some of the things I pointed out to him which took exception to in the long run actually proved to be the right thing. It was one of these, it wasn't a win with honor exactly, but it was a way a client might perceive it where he said, that happens all the time. And I'm like, Well, no, it's not gonna happen here. So I thought it cost him money, right? But then it did cost him money in the short run, but I will tell you since that time, I think if you, if we went and reviewed that, I think we would agree at this point, now, this is five, six years later that it was the right decision. But for a couple years, I didn't even claim that it was the right decision. I said it was a decision I made and I think it was worth sticking by. But I do you think that's what's important to realize that there's not necessarily right answers to all these things but we do have to make a decision and we got to live by it. And in that case, it worked out in the long run.

Ryan: You know, just listening to you explain, not just that example, but some of the other things you shared with us. I know you said there's that saying that you have, choose your heart. And, but what I'm hearing in your voice and the words that you're using and the way you approach these stories is, this really isn't a hot-headed type of conversation. Like, I just need to get in there and fix it. Like it really is coming from your heart. And it is something that you actually care just about people more so than maybe the problem. Is that fair?

The Secret to Bob’s Success

Bob: Yeah, it's very fair. In fact, you know, you mentioned, I've received some awards over time and probably the biggest award I received, I got to give a talk in front of 1000-plus people at the Biltmore and I said, I'm going to give you guys a secret to my success right now. And I said, you young guys, you'd have to write it down, you know, go ahead. I said the secret to my success is I like people. And I stopped, and I said, I'd love to tell you it was more sophisticated than that. That's more strategic, but that's just basically what it is. I like people and I'm in a position to try to help them make a decision and I do my best to do that. And so I said people respond to that when they know that you care for them. And I do think that even in that case where I mentioned where I got sideways with the guy, I think, and he knew that, and he knows today that I really do want him to be successful. And that's what's kept him here and I think helped make him as successful as he is.

Jeremy: I think we've all had a conversation, maybe even when we were growing up as a child when our parents got on to us that we didn't like what we heard, but we kind of knew that they were right and cared, but doesn't mean that we reacted quite right. So

Bob: Yeah, a little side on that real quick. So I am the eighth of 12 kids. Born in the middle of this and I have nine, my wife and I have nine kids of our own, big Irish Catholic family. And so it is interesting. I say that a lot of these things, I actually learned growing up, you know, just watching my parents, you know, and how they dealt with us. And it really is the same way, you know, they, I knew they cared for me even when they had to get in my face. And I try to carry that into work. And I try to carry it back home, when I go home, it's actually harder at home than it is at work, to be honest with you.

Jeremy: So there's something that I want to dig into here and this no blame, no shame type conversation that you're having. But what I'm hearing is you're not applying the blame or the shame to them. But I also thought I heard a little bit, you're not letting it get applied to you either. I think sometimes us as leaders, we kind of get in the icky and sticky if at all. And so, how have you been able to protect that, especially that one you had that went sideways? It didn't sound like you took any blame on that either.

Bob: Well, no. I think the key is that you can say really hard things as long as you're using, as long as you communicate in a way that's just saying these are the facts, whether you like or not. And I'll give you another example. We had a marketing pitch that in the end, the team was making the pitch and the marketing team were just, I mean, completely done with each other. It was over. They were just frustrated with each person had done what they had done and blah, blah, blah. And so I call the meeting and I just laid out the points. I just, I'll give you a couple of them. So, the marketing team said, Hey, you know, we felt like, you know, some days that we were given direction and then the brokers just hit it out, and we were the guys working till 10 o'clock. And they weren't, you know, they weren't helping the broker. And so that's just a fact. I mean, that can, you can really say that in a blaming way or you can just make the point. Look, they felt like you weren't working as hard as they were, rightly or wrongly, and they're all in the room, by the way. This isn't some, but I'm the one speaking at to make it easier. And then on the other side, you know, the brokers are saying, look, we gave direction and then they're bringing us stuff back that has nothing aligned with what we asked for. And so that if they have to go back and redo it, you know, I can't help them, you know? If it takes them longer because they just weren't paying attention. And I don't know who's right. But I do think that those are, in this conversation, if we're gonna get to the bottom of it, those are just facts. Those aren't the fingerpointing if you had done it, right, if you had listened, if you stuck around and so a lot of it is in the delivery. And so I, when I put myself in the middle of all that, I do the same thing and I don't ever, in things that you can't know where right or wrong, I don't try to claim to be right or wrong. But if I am wrong and I find that out, I'm the first here to, you know, kind of ask forgiveness, so to speak, or to acknowledge that I went, that my decision was not a good one. And then we tried again, not focused on that, but get us again, this forward-looking let's, we had a breakdown, you know, and let's now get back to where we're trying to get to because that's what we're really all, where we want to be. We don't really want to go back and account for all this stuff. We really do want to move forward.

Jeremy: I love how you handle those things. It just shows your wealth of knowledge and why you built such a great team that is exceptional. Even when you acknowledge your competitors, you acknowledge that they're extremely valuable, and they're extremely hard-charging and good. But you've just been able to stay focused, hey, we're building something great. So, really appreciate having you on Bob. It's been great. How can people reach out to you or to your organization if they're interested in any of your services here?

Bob: Sure. So, you know, again, Bob Mulhern here and usually a lot of the way, a good way for people to say I want to work with the right person, you have a lot of different talent in your shop is just to direct call me directly or getting direct contact with me. Again, it's just Bob Mulhern MULHERN Colliers, COLLIERS.com. An email, I usually follow up with a call because I'll usually ask a few questions and there'll be business questions. And then I might even ask some style questions too. I mean, what kind of, you know, support you're looking for. And if they, if I receive that I can very quickly, since we have so much talent here and so much different pieces of the business, usually align somebody with a broker that can help them a lot or at least give them an option for help that they might find different from the whatever their current service comes, where it comes from.

Jeremy: That's great. So if you would like to have your business needs looked at and your property needs looked at, I definitely would recommend Bob. So reach out to [email protected], correct?

Bob: Correct.

Jeremy: Perfect. So thank you Bob, so much for being on. I appreciate it. It's great having you. I love hearing your wealth of knowledge.

Bob: Thanks. I really enjoyed it. I appreciate it.

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