Blue Collar Culture

Business Results the Old Fashioned Way

Jim Padilla | It’s Not What You Say, But Who You Are

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Sales tactics shouldn’t be forced or hype-y, says master sales trainer Jim Padilla. This co-founder (with his wife, Cyndi) of the outsourced sales team provider and salesperson recruiter Gain the Edge maintains that effective sales is all about being “natural.”

Jim says we are “selling” all the time – getting your kids to listen to you, for example. So he advocates bringing some of that care and attention to your business sales. Don’t slip your sales hat on when talking to a prospect – be yourself. 

That helps you listen better and build a real relationship – that’s what gets quality leads and higher sales, says Jim.

We talk about that in detail, including…

  • The secret of the Park Bench Sales Conversation
  • Finding the right “players” for each position on your sales team
  • Why – and how – average salespeople can outperform sales rock stars
  • A rigorous hiring process for finding the best fit candidates for your business
  • And more

Listen now…

Mentioned in this episode:

Transcript

Ryan Englin: Welcome back to another episode of the Blue Collar Culture Podcast. I'm your co-host, Ryan, Englin. I'm here with Jeremy Macliver.

Jeremy Macliver: Welcome back, everyone.

Ryan: We're really excited about today's guest. In the business world, he is known as the go-to guy for all things sales. He's a master of collaborating. In fact, collaboration is a big part of the mindset and the focus of what he does, because he wants to make as big an impact as possible. And he's known for instilling into a sales team, it's not what you say, it's who you are being when you say it. And I think there's a lot to unpack there. So, Jim Padilla, thank you so much for being on the podcast today.

Jim Padilla: Ryan, appreciate you having me. You and Jeremy got a lot going on. I'm just happy to be able to help and be part of it.

Ryan: So I know that you've got a lot of different things that you do in your business and expertise that goes way back. You've been doing this for a while, but it's all things sales. But it's not just teaching salespeople how to sell better how to get leads, there's a lot more to it. Can you unpack that for us for a little bit?

Sales Can Entail Practically Anything

Jim: Yeah, you know, it's interesting, because, literally sales is such a vast, extreme, it can be anything. And we make it a lot more complicated than it needs to be as professionals. We all sell on a daily basis. Everybody, every human being listening to this within earshot is, you're a salesperson. You sell people on going to dinner with you, you sell your wife on marrying you, you sell your kids on listening to you. You know, no matter what it is, you're selling all the time. It's not because you're not running scripts and funnels to make these sales happen. You're literally showing up as the person who cares enough about that person to deliver the right message, right? And sometimes we do it in a squirrely manner, but we still get the message across. All we do is put, help unpack that process. You can actually do that with intention. And don't lose your mind as soon as you put the sales hat on and think you have to do something different.

Ryan: I've heard in the past that if you show up as not needing the sale, you can actually listen better, you can have a better conversation and build a relationship with people. I think that's what you just said.

Jim: That's it. I mean, we literally teach a park bench approach to the sales conversation. You should literally be able to sit down on the park bench with a random stranger. And inside of 30 minutes, you should know what they want, why they want it, what's keeping them from getting it and what's going to make them go. You know, what are they willing to sacrifice to make it happen? And then from there, you introduce them to the right person or you offer them the right thing, you know? I mean, that's what sales is.

Ryan: You make that sounds so, so easy. So it sounds like you have a system and a process for this and I'm sure that you, it's tried and tested and you've been doing it for a long time so you know it works. One of the biggest challenges that I have when talking to my clients is helping them find the right salespeople. It's one thing to have a system in a process, but it's entirely something else to have that right person in that sales role. Can you talk to me a little bit about how you solve that problem or some things we need to be looking out for in that sense?

Jim: Man, you have hit the nail on the head. That is really the factor. I see people all the time posting in Facebook groups or online somewhere, hey, I need a salesperson. Who do you know? That is just so wrong approach because you could be the greatest salesperson in the environment you're in, put them in a new environment, and you are all of a sudden average because that environment wasn't conducive for your success. And I'm a huge fan of specialization. And part of the specialization starts with values match, character fit, right?

Belief in not just in the product, but in the vision and in the mission. And, you know, you have to have people who are all in for what you're doing. And we focus on helping good people with predictable environments overachieve consistently, as opposed to finding top tier rock stars and then hope that they perform, right? So we see you continuing, but as, you know, an average quote-unquote, salesperson, who is a great person who can, who is surrounded by a great system and who is on fire for what's being sold, promise you that person will produce at or above your rock star on a consistent basis.

Ryan: It's so funny that you just said that. Just a couple weeks ago, I saw on my Facebook feed a friend of mine posting that. He goes I'd rather have a mediocre sales guy inside of a great system than a great sales guy instead of a mediocre system. All day long I'd pick the former one. So how do you find that person? Jim: Well, we literally spend, I've spent 30 years doing this. It's, you know, you can funnel people through a process. What we do is instead of looking for salespeople and then convert them to the right environment, we look for the right match first. So like our recruiting process begins with, are you a culture fit?

You know, well, we put, we have various different funnels and sequences that we'll put people through. And it's, in its first it's, hey, here's our values, you know, we're all about results and optimism and flexibility and partnership and ownership. And then we will talk through what that looks like on a daily basis. If you, if this doesn't blow you away, don't even go to step two because there's no point. You won't even survive here because everybody here lives in that culture, right? Then from there, you know, we talk about what is the work like? What's the day in the life? Here's how we work in a virtual environment. Here's the way the leads come in. Here's what you're expected to do. Here's how it works. Like it or don't, we're all about the hell yes or the hell no. If it's not a hell yes by default, it's a hell no.

We don't want anybody who's not a hell yes. If you're only maybe, that's cool. Go sell somewhere else. So we have, you know, we filter people through, right? Then once we pull them into the process, then it's all about, you know, we haven't looked at a resume in a decade. And we look for resumes, once we get them in, then it's we have them, we put them in a place where they're having to put in, we have a video response system that they move through online, then we put them into basically elimination calls. As a salesperson, we look for all, we break down all the skill sets that they need and then we put them in a funnel called a vetting funnel. And in that vetting, we should really call it an elimination funnel. That's what it's designed to do is just eliminate you. And nothing about it is comfortable. Nothing about it is easy. If you're a salesperson who knows how to move on their feet and adjust in a conversation, you'll move through it great. And if you're not, you'll be found out in a minute.

Ryan: It sounds like you've built this system to help companies find the right salespeople, is that right?

Jim: Correct.

Ryan: It's something you do is you help them find good salespeople, right? Jim: Yeah, okay. So we make a basically, a values match based on your company. And then we go search for that person. And then once we get them through as a match for who you are, then we start going into the skill set piece. And then once we've determined everything fits, then we, you know, we turn them over, we match them to the company. And we would never match somebody with you who we wouldn't hire for ourselves.

Ryan: I love that. That's great. So we get this person in here, they're the right fit. They're the culture match. I see it all the time, people fall in love with these new salespeople. They're like, Oh, my gosh, she's so great. I love them so much. I had such a great conversation. There's such a great talker, such a great listener. Three months in, no results. What's going on there? Jim: Well, if you've done the first part right, then it's more likely that the reason the results didn't happen is because you didn't surround them with the right processes and systems and strategies.

Here's the thing, I've been selling my whole life, man. I can't tell you how many times I've come into a new opportunity and somebody said, Here's your leads. Here's your script. Go make me some money. And fortunately, I'm pretty damn good at this, but I've dealt with a lot of very difficult, challenging environments trying to figure that out. And most people just won't win there. They're gonna, you're gonna have anybody who's not a phenomenal over the top rock star is going to fail in that environment. It's not because they can't sell, it's because it wasn't really easy to do it. You know, you want them to focus on selling, if they have to spend half their time trying to figure out your environment, they're already gonna fail.

Ryan: So if you're listening this right now and you're going, Wow, that sounds like me. Like, I've got this, I'm able to find some good people, but they're just not doing it. Like, what do you do? How do you build this system? How do you figure out where to start?

How to Start Building Your Sales System

Jim: Yeah, well, you know, I mean, like I said, you take these steps and just make them super simple. It doesn't, we have a very automated process. And then we insert, we have, you know, there's calls and roleplay calls and group calls and evaluations. We put a lot of manpower into it. But the most important thing is just document the process. You know, take everything that I'm saying, write it out, and then how would you find that? You can literally reach out and say, okay, who's the person I'm looking for? You know, let me back this up. Most people have, we're all familiar with an avatar for our client.

And that's great. And most people don't even take that to the level that they should. But we take your avatar for your client combined with your, you know, your values, your culture, what's your vision, all those things that line up. And then from this, we build an avatar for your salesperson. Who's the ideal person that will fit here? I was fortunate, I played baseball in college and I'm pretty good at it. I've been coaching sports most of my life. And I coached little league baseball when my daughter was playing. And the winning coach gets to coach the all-star team. And every single year, like when you watch the Little League World Series on TV, it's an entire team of pitchers, catchers and shortstops.

They're all, every one of them played pitcher, catcher, shortstop on their team. These guys don't know how to play outfield. They don't play, you know, first base, all that stuff. Well, we would recruit the pitchers and catchers and shortstops to be your top 10 or 11 guys and then we would pick four guys, five guys who played outfield all year, who played first base all year, who played third base all year. And those guys thrived in their spot. They didn't have an ego so they didn't care if they bought at ninth or seventh or eighth, right?

So now you put a guy where he's used to winning, used to playing well, used to doing his job and again, surround him with super talent and a great system overachieve. Overachieve. So we would win as a team because we would put all the right people in all the right places, right? And I've taken that same approach to building sales teams.

Ryan: Love the sports metaphor, there's so much to unpack in the way sports teams win and the way sales teams win. There's just, there's such a crossover there. I love that.

Jim: Completely. And it just, you find the personal fulfillment that comes out of the person as well, when they feel like they're in their spot. You know, we sell for clients and with our outsourced teams, we sell products from $1,000 to $100,000. And the guy who's selling $100,000 is not the same guy selling $1,000 stuff. We have some people who just crush it. They sell 2000, 3000, $4,000 products all day long. We have other people who don't need to start unless it's 50 K or above. And they're having a different level, more sophisticated conversation with a sophisticated buyer or more nuance. And neither one of them are bad. They're both rock stars in their spot.

Ryan: Yeah. So what I'm hearing you say is it really depends on what your goals are with this salesperson that you're hiring. What really they're selling and who they're selling to like, that, all of that makes a difference in whether or not this person is going to be a good fit. Is that right?

Jim: Completely, completely. And that gives you an idea of who would thrive in your environment, you know, based on the right fit, you know, based on, you need to factor in who's your client, you know? When I when, in the environment, when I used to have my alarm company, we had, we would train them, and we call the train them and recruit them in masses training and classes and kick them out on their asses. And then they'd be out door knocking, we would take them in canvassing the neighborhoods.

And we was usually high ego athletes, former military. It took a certain kind of person who's gonna go out in neighborhoods and knock, get their butts kicked in, get door slammed in their faces, deal with Pitbulls and chain-link fences. And all that stuff on hot summer days and rainy evenings. That's not an average salesperson. That takes a very specific, overly competitive person. You can't just throw a sales guy there. You have to throw a competitor there and teach them how to sell versus, you know,

Ryan: So hold on a second here. So you just said that it's not a sales guy, it's a competitor that you teach to sell. Let's talk about that for a second because I think I just need someone that's got some skills in selling. Like they went to a sales school or they worked for one of these companies that teach inside sales reps. Like they have the skills, but you're not saying it's just about the skills for selling. There's so much more to it than that.

Jim: The skills are the last thing that matters. It's important, it matters. You got to have them. They got to know what they're doing. They have to know how to present, how to close on a sale, collect an offer. But that's all teachable. With not teachable is authenticity. What's not teachable is empathy. What's not teachable is competitive drive. I mean, there has to be a certain level of self. I have a very delusional self, sense of self about me. I think I'm invincible. I, you know, there's, I have to have this certain level of ego to not let rejection get in the way. If you don't buy me, I think you're crazy. That's okay though, you know? But if, otherwise, I'd be killing myself every day, you know? There's certain things that have to come into play and you got to test for all that stuff. And then from that, you can put the right, and plus, if you hire somebody who's a competitor, high drive, and you put them in environment with other guys who are good at what they do, how fast do you think he's gonna learn how to master the sales skills overnight because it's gonna be high priority for him.

Ryan: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Because he wants to win. He wants to win. So if I want to go out and I want to hire a sales guy, and I'm like, Okay, this is the type of person they're going to be talking to, I've got a system for how they're going to follow up and how they're going to go through this system. How do I measure all those intangibles that you're talking about? The high drive, the competitiveness, how do I figure that out? Whether it's in an interview process, or some part of the screening, like, what's the real-world stuff we got to do there?

Jim: Yeah, well, part of it is like we have an online system, we have a couple of different ways. And one is they have to check off, they watch videos, they have to fill out personality profiles. We're looking for how they, you know, I tell people often when we ask you questions in interviews, I'm not asking, I'm not looking for your answer, I'm looking for how you answer. Like no matter what you say to me, I'm not gonna be happy. We're going to keep you off balance. Yeah, okay. I don't know. But I don't like that. And we give them the impression that their answer wasn't good enough, often. And then, you know, but keep them off balance. One answer was great, the next century was like, eh. And then they're gonna be like, Hey, wait a second. I didn't I got, how do I overcome this, right? Then from there, you know, you will challenge certain things, there's certain questions you want to be able to ask that are going to drive those things.

You know, Chet Holmes, famous for this and his Ultimate Sales Machine, talking about, you know, talking about ego drive, typically a person who has an opposite-sex parent who was overly indulgent, and I mean that in the best possible sense, but that's the person who typically has a high ego drive. You got a young boy whose mother thought, you know, he could conquer the world, he could do no wrong. That guy has a high level of ego. He's gonna have a high, you know, those are certain factors like that. So you ask for those questions. You ask for those things. You look at where were the things that you've overcome in your life. You know, I didn't talk about my story but, you know, I grew up in an abusive environment. I was in foster care at 13. I was on the streets at 16 and I was in jail at 19. And I used to get the crap kicked out of me, first at home, then in foster care, then on the streets, then in jail. I had to learn to, if I was, either I would end up taking my own life or I'd learn how to manage my environment and see myself as more than. I had to learn how to influence my environment so that I can bend will towards my direction because that was how I had to learn how to survive.

And so I started learning that I can be anything I want it to be, that I make my own reality. I learned if it was to be was up to me and all of that stuff, right? So I created this alter ego of somebody who had value because nothing about my life said I have value, right? But that's, there are guys like that. That's a more of a smaller percentage. Most guys who have that ego strength, it was poured into them, right? You just, you test for those, you ask, you don't say hey, I'm gonna try to find out your ego strength, but you asked about a story about their childhood. Who was the first, whenever you got hurt, how did your parents handle it? When you came home with an F on your, a bad grade on your report card, who responded and how? And you'll learn how did, what kind of response do they need? How do they get that kind of attention, right? And then we don't ask them questions to tell us things. We just have them show us. So when they are on the call, and they'll say something like, yeah, that's, I don't know about that. I don't like that response. I don't, you know, that doesn't sound like to me you have what it takes. Chet Holmes, his quote specifically is Yeah, you know, I'm not hearing rock star. You're a good guy, you're going to do okay, but I'm not hearing rock star.

Jeremy: But I am.

Jim: You will hear guys, those are the guys that will disappoint you. It's like, dude, you were doing so good. I used to use that every time as my closing question. And I still bring that into play because it's great. But there's so many different ways to tweak it, same version. And it's heartbreaking sometimes. You got a guy who you thought was so, he passed all the tests and then as soon as you said, I don't think you're, I'm not hearing rock star. And he's like, Okay, well, you know, I just thought I'd give it a try. And dude, you're killing me, you know? Because you want it, the guy's gonna go well, you know, start qualifying me, right? And well, tell me what a rock star is. How is a rock star defined in your world? And what do you mean by that? And then you have some guys you'd be like, You're out of your freakin mind because I'm the best. You're bluesy. Your lost buddy, you know? At least that's better than the guy who quits and retreats. But the guy you're looking for is, and I should say girl, guy, you know, we have more women selling for us than guys, but that person can immediately qualify the situation.

Jeremy: Jim, you got that great question there. I love that one. Don't sound like you're a rock star. What's the other ones that you use to really test their ego? Really push in on them?

Testing the Mettle of Your Potential Salespeople

Jim: Asking them about a certain circumstance. And then regardless of the response, you just kind of go, Yeah, you know? Or you just Okay, well, you know, I was looking for something more. It just kind of, you could say directly, you can say it under your breath. You'd be amazed at how that stuff, if somebody's got ego drive, it will show up because they're gonna be like What are you talking about? What do you mean? That was, do you need more? I'll tell you another one, you know? You want the guy who's gonna be like, Okay, how do we get over this? And again, that's why I don't, I really don't care. 90% of the time I don't pay attention to the actual answer. They're telling me some great story. I'm not really paying attention.

I'm paying attention to how did they respond to me? How do they respond in this situation? You know, and then sometimes we'll raise the octave. We'll be like, you know what, come on, man, Hey, I'm just not getting it. What's up? What do you think that's good? And then maybe they'll diffuse, right? I refereed high school basketball and college basketball. And one of the things they taught us is diffuse. The higher the coach goes the lower you go, right? But the coach you horrible, you're costing my, you're costing us the game blah, blah, blah. And then you just, Are you done, coach? Okay, cool. Technical foul, white coach, you know? But you don't go, you could take, you don't blow up on them. You go the opposite direction and bring them down, right? And It's the same thing in the sales game. Like, just to see how, if you can, if you bring them up and let them bring you down, it's fun to watch guys who can manage the conversation well.

Jeremy: Very cool.

Ryan: That sounds fun, actually. I coach a lot of interviewing on, for frontline employees, hourly workers and we look for a lot of the same things and we have process-based questions more than is there a right answer or is or not? It's more on how they answered or how they take it to that next step, that next level and stand out, look a little different. But it sounds like this is really an emotional roller coaster for salespeople what you put them through. Is that fair?

Jim: It is, it is. And the great part about it is they all leave thanking us, whether we hire them or not. They love the process because, you know, I think they felt like they got something from it. And I'm big on that. I don't want to waste anybody's time. I want, if you're in the spend a week going through a process with us or an hour and a half on a roleplay call or whatever, I want, every minute you spend with us to be, you know, the least that and more in value to return to you. Because we've had plenty of people who we didn't hire who send people to us. Just like we had clients who we didn't, clients who we didn't take on who've never hired us who send people to us because we just deliver value. We want them to feel like they're gonna win when they're here.

Ryan: And it sounds like there's a high level of standard as well. You're not just accepting anybody.

Jim: Correct.

Ryan: You're turning both salespeople away. You're also even turning clients away if they're not the right fit for you. And I would imagine that goes back to values alignment, which is what you were talking about before. Like, you've got a set of values and standards by which you're qualifying everybody else that comes into your business or does business with you. Is that right?

Jim: Yeah, I highly recommend it. In today's economy, I don't see how people don't. You're creating a lot more work for yourself if you've just taking anybody who can pay.

Ryan: Yeah, that fog the mirror test seems to be real popular, especially in the trades right now. Like, hey, they showed up for the interview. I need the bodies. And then you're disappointed when three days later they decided no call no show because they took another job somewhere else.

Jim: Yeah, exactly. You know, trust your gut a lot of this too. There's a lot of times you're feeling right, in the middle of the conversation, I'm not sure this guy's buying me right now. Ask them. Don't be stealthy. Don't try to be the professional, right? When I'm hearing something, if I feel like I'm stumbling, I tell them. Hey, you know what, that didn't come out right. Let me just say that again. I don't care what they think of me. And same thing with them. I was like, You know what, you just told me that this was the most important thing for you to solve, yet you sounded like your, you know, whipping up some mashed potatoes. I mean, is this important or not?

Jeremy: You know, this reminds me, Jim, of one of the interview questions. I used to hire tons and tons of welders. And we would just go through, and there's a lot of issues, you know, as you're hiring these people, and one of ours was actually almost an inverse of what you're talking about here. We'd get towards the end of the interview and like great. Man, this is, we will, you know, brag on them a little bit, whatever. And I was like, why don't we take you out on the shop? We'll show you around who all you'll be working with and everything.

And so now they're pumped up, right? They're like, we got the job, we're ready to go. And we'd walk them out there. And we had a couple people out there that knew that they're going to get approached. We walk them out, it's like, yeah, here, this is, you know, this guy, and here's stuff. And they start talking, and I would just disappear. I go talk to shop manager, whatever and they would let their guard down and tell you all this stuff. Their drug habits, their everything, like crazy stuff that they were just not even asking them. They had the job, they're closed, the guard went down and they were just boom, blow it and then never hear back from us again and wouldn't know why.

Jim: Yeah, it's, that's a human thing. It's crazy. People, we're just nuts. It's like, it would probably happen if you didn't even leave the room, if you just walk 10 feet away. They just think you're like the walls. You know, when I was coaching high school basketball, I was fortunate to be able to coach two of my daughters. One of my daughters was a little bit more of a troublemaker. And I'm literally in the locker room and in coaching girls basketball at the time, they're planning this party, our daughter already lied and told us that the parents were going to be home and they weren't. And she had my wife call the other parent who turned out to be the other girl's big sister, right? She already screwed herself on this thing. And then we're sitting there in the gym at practice and they're talking about who's going to bring the beer and stuff. I'm like, guys, I'm 10 feet away from you. I'm right here.

Jeremy: Yeah, no, good drug one, we didn't ask the question. They divulged it. Like, they just but they already had the job, their guard's down and so that's what we're really talking about is just getting that authentic. Ryan says this a lot, you know, and hiring salespeople, if they're anywhere near their value in at all, they should be able to sell you. Like, and so often we get in like wow, there's such a people person. We bought into it. But we actually put them through the rhythms that they're going to go through. Because let's face it, you're talking about your roller coaster but sales is a roller coaster. Rejection's real, the pain’s real.

Jim: You just need to know right upfront can they deal with that? Can they deal with the pain? Can they deal with rejection? Can they lose control the conversation and get it back? Because that, I mean, that happens all the time, right? So put them in that situation and see how they do.

Ryan: Yeah, I love the open, honest that you have there in the interview process. Almost if you think, say it, because if you don't like the way you're saying something, it's okay to humble yourself for a second and say, Hey, I didn't like the way that came out. Let me change that, almost as a model mirroring type of thing to see if they catch on. And I love that and back to what you guys were talking about with the drugs and everything else. We run integrity assessments for a lot of our clients where these employees, these applicants will come in and it will say would you fake an injury on the job to get some time off of work? They're like, Yeah, I would. Like, would you bring alcohol to the job site? Yeah, I would. Would you come high? Yes, I would. It's just amazing that we can ask these overt questions and people will say, Yeah, I will. And so, you know, but too often I think employers are afraid to ask those questions. Or maybe they don't even have the skills to do it. Like there's definitely a skill set involved in what you're talking about, Jim. This isn't something where I can just listen this podcast and tomorrow be acing these interviews.

How to Go About Keeping Your Interviews Objective

Jim: No, however, you know, I recommend bring somebody in to do it. I mean, we provide that service, obviously. It's what we do. But you, the thing that I would advise a business owner, if you're a small business owner, you're the one that does the interviews, if you want to be in the process, you're the end of the process. You can sign off and say yeah, or no after they've gone through it, but you need to have them talk to other people because a good salesperson is gonna say, Man, I love your company. I love your products. I love what you're about. You're going yeah, I've been doing this family business for 20 years. Oh, This guy's great, you know? And you don't pay attention to the red flags that are right in front of you because this guy loves you. So you need to get out of the process and let somebody else take it. And ideally, someone who's objective third party. Who doesn't care one way or the other in the outcome,

Ryan: So how do you do that? Besides calling you and saying, hey, help me with this Jim, like, how do you identify that person that's capable of having that objective conversation and you can actually trust as the owner that they've got your best interest in mind too. Like, they're not going to let someone that's a good applicant out of, you know, go back out to market. Jim: If you're, in any sort of connection, a networking environment, a mastermind environment, someplace where you've got colleagues and peers, that can be other industries, but somebody you respect as a business owner, set up an arrangement like that. Say hey, you know what? When I'm interviewing guys, will you be one of, one step of my interview? And I'll, you know, do yours.

And you'll actually show up with more focus and integrity for that person than you will for yourself. We tolerate, I don't know what it is about business owners, we tolerate all kinds of nonsense for ourselves that we would never let a client tolerate, you know? So you'll really focus on, you'll ask them really good questions because you want to make sure that you're steering, you're taking care of your partner really well. So I recommend that and then some point in the process should be a peer review. So if you've got, you know, a couple other people who are doing the job, they're going to be working with this person. So have them ask some questions, and it doesn't have to be anything to do with the sales process, whatever the hell they want to ask, right? Do you show up early? Do you stay late? How do you handle conflict? What happens if I thought this was my customer and then, you know, how would you solve?

They'll ask all kinds of stuff that you'll never think of asking right? And then what I've learned, we do that, and when we do, they have ultimate veto power over anything we do. Because if my team says no and I say yes, I just told my team their opinion doesn't matter. So if you're going to do that, you got to be willing to go with whatever they say,

Jeremy: You know what I did that. I've done that a bunch. I did that with a painter. I used to own some body shops and the team laughed at me later because I would have made the wrong decision. We actually had these two guys come in and the team was in a little bit of a funk at the time and kind of down. And this one painter came in and interviewed, he was peppy, man, I liked him, we hit it off. And I probably did what a lot of business owners do in the interview process. I told him how great our company was at the very beginning and talked for the first 15 minutes. And all he did is repeat after me, right? And so now I encourage people not to shut up. When they walk in, you're the buyer. What do you do when you go to a sales slot? Say no, I'm not interested in the car right now. Why are you on the sales lot? But we reject at that moment. And so I tell them to reject. But I didn't do that. And I bought into this guy.

I thought, Man, this guy's great. And then there's this other guy that was kind of, he was a little bit of a, I thought he was a little downer, you know? And so, but we did that, we already had that in the process. So our guys, our techs interviewed him. And I just talked to him, Well, they picked the downer guy. I kind of pushed back, it was enough. I felt like I was wrong. I pushed in. But ultimately, to your point, I followed their lead because I knew I would lose more steam in the entire company by not doing it. Well, that guy turned out to be a phenomenal, not only a phenomenal painter but a phenomenal team player, phenomenal company man. He wrote, he was just a great guy. The other guy forgot to take us off of his account and his email list. And about two weeks later, we learned about some party he was organizing that was not kosher in any way.

And we were like, Whoa, we barely missed a major pitfall. That was listening to the team. And I love that because the team is just, they already know you. They know the work environment. They're gonna ask real questions. They got to buy in on this and they're going to be partly helping this person be successful.

Jim: Yeah, well, because then the other, there's a lot of things that happen there. One, he's gonna, the new employee's gonna be much more part of the team already because they have accepted them from the beginning. The other part that happens is the team has ownership. They don't want to say they recommend it wrong, so they will make sure that he's winning. You know, they're gonna make sure he's off to a good start. Otherwise, they look stupid, right? So it provides a lot. And then it just brings them into the piece. They're part of the ownership. Now all of a sudden, you've got a team that knows you trust them, you know? So it's, to me, there's no losing it.

Jeremy: So let's just look at this. You're looking at their ego, their push, their drive. We talked a lot about that, how you show up. Is there anything else from the show up standpoint that we need to be looking for?

Jim: Those, it's the whole myriad. You want to build, that's why it's so important to build the profile, right? When I'm looking for door knockers and alarm company, I'm looking for high ego drives, high endurance, you know, guys that are competitive. When I'm looking, you know, we sell a lot of transformational coaching stuff so I need people to get in their hearts. I need people who can understand people's journey, people who will listen, people who will be patient, people who will understand that when you're frustrated or you say something stupid, it's not because you're stupid. It's because you're scared, or whatever, right?

So you just need to know the environment and understand, how do you plan. So then from there, that's when you build Okay, what are the drivers I'm looking for? And then how do I ask questions that will elicit, the whole goal is just put them in a situation that will predictably trigger the response that you want to minimize or maximize. So it's like a laboratory. It's fun to start testing and tweaking and playing with stuff. You know, and then, you know, you just have a couple of good homerun questions. You know, something I've stole from The Sales Manager with Mike Weinberg. Great book. And he, I use his question verbatim.

And I ask them, first one is tell me about a wind that you've had that started out as a loss. Tell me exactly what you did and what you learned from it. And they tell you the whole process and the whole scenario. What did you count on? How did you overcome it? All that. They got to describe it in detail. And you'd be amazed, some people just can't, because they're trying to embellish some big old Moby Dick story. And then the other is, we hire you, we love you, we think you're in, you're the guy we want. You're going to come in and you're going to get trained, you're going to get onboarded, and then I'm leaving for 90 days and I'm giving you the keys. What are you going to do day one and what are you going to deliver to me when I come back in 90 days? And if they yammer and stammer, they're out. But if they're a sales pro, they should have some thought. Well, first, I'm going to go through your existing list. I'm going to see who's your ideal buyer, who's the people who bought from you in the last year. I'm going to talk to the other colleagues and see what they're doing. Who's got follow up strategy? You're going to have someplace to go with a thought process. If you go well, I don't know. I think you're done. Get out.

Ryan: So it's not so much the exact answer, it's really their thought process. And are they thinking this through like a real sales champion would think it through?

Jim: Correct.

Ryan: So one thing I want to move to real quick as, thinking as an entrepreneur, I may or may not like the sales process. It just depends. Like, I know a lot of entrepreneurs that are excellent salespeople. They're the best salespeople in the company and they're always going to be one of their top salespeople. I know other entrepreneurs are like, gosh, if I could just find someone else to sell for me, that would be amazing. And so I'm thinking, speaking more to those that don't enjoy the sales process as much, they'd rather be more in the business managing accounts, those kinds of things. They hire a sales guy, they go through all this process, they find the one that's driven, they find the one that's got this perseverance, this high ego, and they bring them into the company. And maybe they've got an okay training platform. Maybe they've got someone that's doing some training. What's that process look like that holds that salesperson accountable? Like what are just a couple of real tangible things that are in a really effective sales process that would make sure that they're doing the right activities at the right time?

Set Tangible Goals for Your Sales Process

Jim: Yeah, it's I think, first, ideally should be co-created. I mean, you as the owner, as the manager, you're the one with most at stake. So you need to know what you, what does it take to run your business? You know, so if you need to make $100,000 a month to drive your business, well, then how many clients do you need, how many new clients need to come on board? How many existing clients need to be up-sold? Like literally think out the numbers and do the math. And then how many of those things happen organically based on your business model? How many of those need to be actually acquired? And so maybe you need to bring on nine new clients this month. Great. How many appointments do you need to have, right? And then to deliver nine, to deliver presentations to convert nine, in order to have that many appointments, how many people do you need to contact?

And then once you can just do some simple math around that, then you break it up by days and activities. Okay, how many of these are we going to conquer in the first week and what are you going to do and how are you going to track It, right? But you get that with the salesperson. It's like here, this is the objective. And if you hit, you, if you deliver five of those, you get x. If you help us hit the whole nine, you get another x bonus or whatever, right? But, so they have that buy-in and understanding why this matters. This is what it takes for us to run our company and pay our bills and do all of that. Anything above that, I can bonus you from or whatever, right? A bonus out of profit. And but then, so then they just need to be able to think, they have buy-in on the outcome and then you help hold them accountable to take actions in able to get there, right?

Because my personal belief is it's hard to hold people accountable to a sale because you don't always control what people buy. But I can control how many calls I make, I control how many appointments I run, how many presentations I deliver, how many people I follow up with. And if I can document all of that, like all of our calls here, they're all recorded. So we audit calls, we can do all of that. What I can't, if I see a guy who's done 150 calls and we can audit them all he's got documents on them, then we can say, Okay, now this must be a training problem, or maybe it's a marketing problem. But if I look and there was only 12 calls done, then I know it was more of an activity problem on his part, right? So you as the owner, as the manager, I don't recommend personally that the owner be the manager because you have other priorities. But get somebody whose sole job it is to focus on that. And it's just everything is not about making people wrong. You have to help your team understand that numbers are only feedback and feedback is nothing more than information. The moment the feedback is what judges them, you're screwed and so are they. It won't work.

They need to be totally fine if they're converting at 8% or 88%. Because 88% doesn't mean you're a rockstar, it means you had a great week. Sometimes it means the perfect people showed up to talk to you. It doesn't mean you're anything better or different than you were when you converted eight. It just means something else. There's information that we need to capitalize on. So if you're not capturing that information, you literally have no way to improve the situation. So that's a conversation that you need to be able to have with the team and let them know this is how we evaluate that process. So now we're all in it together.

Jeremy: We talk about scorecards, and, you know, I'm constantly using the line, this just defines winning. You know, once we know what winning is, we have to coach the team there. And so whatever hit us, hit us. Whatever is holding us back is what's holding us back. But we still got to get the team to winning, like we're not compromising there. But at the same time, you're right. The 8%, well, it's just, it was the phone call a week, whatever that maybe was, but we need to dig into it. Maybe it was inaction. Maybe it was something going on to their head. They got down in the dumps. Maybe it was bad leads. Maybe it's something in our sales process has changed or whatever. So I love that.

Jim: Yeah. And a lot of times it's, you know, it can be market forces, you know, things happen. We're in an election year, right? Stuff happens. The climate changes, you know, the political climate, the economic climate. And so the numbers can just tell the story of what's actually happening. And you can ask the questions, well, what happened? Oh, well, this happened, or there was an accident or the, you know, the supply chains got blocked up. Okay, well, as long as you can explain what happened and then pivot, then you're good. But if you can't actually explain that, the number should always have a story to tell. That's the way I look at it. So as long as you're telling them that story, then you're good.

Jeremy: And one thing I like to do if I have a team, you know, we work with a lot of the listeners out here are blue collar, and, you know, I myself was not a big sales fan. I loved fixing cars and operations and all that kind of stuff. So one of the tricks I learned, particularly, was because I didn't feel like I had a good process, is I could do what you're talking about there with those numbers, hey, I need this many new clients, new customers this how many upsells, blah, blah. I knew that, but to get there, I would maybe struggle. And so learned that those are great questions even in an interview. Hey, if we had to hit $100,000 this month, and it was kind of broken down in this I would say, what would you do? And they start telling you the activities and you start seeing their thought processes. And then once they join, hey, this is what you said we're going to do. Let's start tracking that. And let's build this together. But that's more of a coaching model than a,

Jim: Yeah. You know, it's interesting, though, because that, one thing that we do in all, one of the best questions I ever learned was once you lay out the story, this is what we want, this is the vision, this is what we mean. They're gonna respond one of two ways. They're either gonna say, Oh, that's awesome. What do you need me to do? Or they're gonna say, hey, that's great. Here's what I would do. Which guy do you want, right? The guy who said, Hey, what do you need me to do? He just gave you a job. He's not part of your solution. He's gonna, he's waiting for you to dictate him. And that's a very key indicator on how it's probably gonna move throughout their normal workday. Happy to work, happy to do it, but you need to have a place for him to go. You want the guy who's going to be like that sounds great. Here's what I would do. Boom, I love that guy.

Ryan: Yeah, that collaboration approach that you just summed up there that we've been talking about for a few minutes now about letting them build out the process, letting them create the metrics and get their buy-in for it. Not just letting them have full control being a part of that, but it's a really a collaboration to get their buy-in and get their thought process going. I think it's an amazing approach. So Jim, as we wrap up here, I've learned so much and just having this conversation with you I'm sure our listeners have as well. How do they get ahold of you if they want to learn more about what it is that Gain the Edge can do and how you can help them either whether it's on a training or maybe even some outsourced selling, how do they get in touch with you?

Jim: You know, okay, simplest way is if you go to the Jim P, JIMP, like jimp360.com. You go to that website, and I've got everything there, any way that you want to connect with me. Connect with me on LinkedIn, Facebook, there's YouTube videos, there's website, rather than me sending you someplace, you figure the best path that makes sense for you. But the one thing I'll ask you to do is when you get to that site, there's a button, and you can do it on your phone, it works the same way. Push the contacts button and send me a text message. And just let me know that you heard me on the Blue Collar Podcast, and what you do and how I can help. Because I'm happy, I'm not, this is not a sales pitch. I'm a geek on sales strategy. If you want to talk about what's working or what's not, I'm happy to jam with you and see what we can figure out because I just love to do this. And selfishly, I want to know what other people are doing in the marketplace. So if I know what you're doing, I can bring that relevance to, you know, my clients and stuff. So love to help. So just reach out, shoot me a text and let's jam.

Ryan: Thank you so much, Jim. I really enjoyed it today. Like I said, I learned a ton. And go to that jimp360.com if you want to connect with Jim. Thanks again.

Jim: Awesome. Thanks for having me.

Jeremy: Thanks, Jim.

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