Blue Collar Culture

Business Results the Old Fashioned Way

Matt Jones | You Don’t Have a Lead Problem, You Have a Conversion Problem

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On this week’s episode of the Blue Collar Culture Podcast, we speak with special guest, Matt Jones. If you’ve been listening to our show for a while, you’ll know that we are focused on results for trades-based businesses; we are firm believers that the trades need to be supported in the same ways as other industries. Matt is a former plumber who was so frustrated by the lack of support from digital marketing companies when it came to trades-based businesses, that he actually set out to solve the problem on his own by starting his own digital agency: The Tradie Web Guys.

“I can fundamentally say for 80% of the people out there, they don’t have a lead problem, they’ve got a conversion problem. What I mean by that is, if they’ve got a website that isn’t capturing information, that’s not educating, or nurturing, or leading people to the next step, their website’s not converting. So, they could be getting enough traffic, they could be getting enough eyes on their website, but those eyes are not taking the next step. They’re not filling in a webform, they’re not making a phone call, they’re not downloading a resource, they’re not doing something,” says Matt.

We chat about Matt’s frustration over the lack of support for the trades and his journey to creating his own agency, as well as:

  • His podcast, The Site Shed
  • Myths about marketing for the trades
  • Advice for tradespeople on how to improve their messaging and reach more prospective clients
  • Tips for improving your conversion rates
  • And more

Mentioned in this episode:

Transcript

Voiceover: This is Blue Collar Culture where you don't need ping pong tables, a cereal bar or nap pods to attract and retain real A players. Join us for the next hour where we speak with down to earth leaders that understand what it takes to win with a blue collar culture. Now here are your hosts, Jeremy Macliver and Ryan Englin.

Ryan Englin: Welcome back to another episode of the Blue Collar Culture Podcast. I'm your co-host, Ryan Englin and I am here today with Jeremy Macliver.

Jeremy Macliver: Welcome back, everyone.

Ryan: So if you've listened to us for any period of time, you know that we are so focused on results for the trades. It's so important that the trades are supported the same way as other industries. And our guest today is, actually used to be a plumber.

In fact, he was so frustrated with the lack of support from digital marketing companies from other agencies when it came to trade-based businesses that he actually set out to solve the problem on his own. In fact, he started his own digital agency called the Tradie Web Guys. He started a podcast. He's got tons of support groups for trades-based businesses. And I just want to welcome today's guest, Matt Jones. Welcome to the show.

Matt Jones: Thank you, folks. How are we?

Ryan: Doing good.

Matt: I should probably qualify for the audience that if you can't understand me, it's because I'm from a little island about 6000 kilometers south of Florida called Australia.

Ryan: Nice, nice. So, talk to us a little bit about this journey you took, Matt and the frustration you had as a plumber and looking for someone to really just support the industry and why you decided to get into marketing.

Matt: I, like a lot of Australians, when I finished my apprenticeship, I went off on a global pilgrimage and spent a year in, two years in North America and a year over in Europe. And while I was over in, probably when I got to Europe, I was working as a plumber in London. And it was horrendous, to be honest. It was freezing cold, it was on the verge of snowing, I was working this big concrete wind tunnel and I was like there's got to be something better than this. And then I started taking interest in business.

And I thought this, you know, sort of writing a lot of books at that point while I was traveling, I was young, don't get me wrong, I was still very heavily in the party zone. But I was sort of starting to grow up a little bit in some respects. And when I go back to Australia, I went to work for a company that well, I took a job back as a plumber. And then I started working in my own business. So I was essentially running my own plumbing company.

And a position came up through a colleague of mine, which was like a sales and marketing role for a really well-established plumbing company in Sydney that were bringing in a technology out of Europe and North America to sell to plumbing companies. It was a pipe relining technology. So essentially, we would bring this product in from Europe, we would distribute it, sell it and train people on how to use it throughout the Asia Pacific. So we kind of set that company up from scratch. It's still running today really well, actually.

And so that kind of got me sort of more thinking out of, you know, the plumbing world and more into the business side of things in the sense of, okay, we need to, you know, find product, we need to find a market, we need to, you know, market the product to that market, we need to distribute it, you know, train people how to use it. And like things you typically don't really consider when you're used to just, you know, lying pot. That was a really good paradigm shift. And along that journey, I got to meet some extremely successful and smart business operators within the trade space.

And I noticed there was a huge disconnect between, you know, what these guys were really good at and what they needed to be able to do more of it. And by that, I mean, like we'd sold these guys trailers, these companies trailers, you know, for, with pipe relining setups for $200,000. And, you know, they'd come to us often they'd say, right, you better help us sell this or we're going to be sleeping in this trailer you just built us. I'm thinking, well, just get it on your website. And they'd say, well, we don't have a website. And I'd be like, what? Anyway, so this happened a little, a few times.

And I said, You know what, for a couple of them, I said, You know what, I'll just build your website. So I did that. I'll build a website for a couple of them. And not, to be honest, I've never done anything like that before. But I just put it out there and loaned it, I thought it'd be a bit of fun, I'd have something to do. And next thing I know, these people are telling people, go and speak to Matt. He built our website. And I'm thinking what? So I thought maybe there's something in this, you know?

Ryan: So Matt, you went through this whole journey, and you realized that there was a lack of support in the trade space for marketing companies. Is that accurate?

Matt: Not at that point, at that point. All I could see was, there were tradespeople that needed service, they needed these things, and I didn't know about them. And in Australia, we have what we call TAFE, which is your version of college. And when we go through college, they teach you it's quite, it's extremely, well, compared to like anywhere else in the world, it's quite a comprehensive training program for developing you into a plumber. Like, it takes for four to six years to go through this program.

And, but at no stage throughout that program do they actually teach you how to run a business or how to market yourself or, you know, it's all very much theory and practical, but relating to various parts of the trade. And so that got me thinking, you know, all these guys need this, how many more would need it? So I wasn't really enjoying, I sort of done what I wanted to do at that position anyway, in terms of setting that company up, and it was running pretty well at that stage.

And it was a good guy in charge there. So I sort of ended up leaving and I started up my own company. At that stage, it was called Plumbing Work Guys. And we basically just focused on plumbers. But that very, very suddenly morphed into Tradie Web Guys, where we basically started just building websites, it was essentially for tradespeople. We did plumbers and electricians and a couple of builders and things like that. And then, as that progressed, like people, our clients would come to us and they'd say this website's great but it's not making the phone ring.

And I would say Well, that's because websites are, if you, if a website is there as a launchpad, if you want your phone to ring, you need some form of marketing. And I went, oh, okay, well, can we do that as well? And I was like, Okay, so then I started doing some research and, you know, hiring some team members and then we became a marketing agency. And then that's sort of led us into where we are today. And since being like a, you know, pretty much a fully-fledged marketing agency for trade-based businesses. And in 2016, and we were doing a lot of education.

We were speaking a college, we were speaking at the Department of Education for Australia down at the capital of Canberra. And just by basically presenting, always, more or less, I suppose they're representing from a trade perspective, that some of the issues that, you know, business owners were having because pretty much everyone in that room at that point was more of a government representative. And it was getting really well received. And I thought, Man, I'd love to be able to get this message out, you know, further than a room of 10 bureaucrats.

How can I do this? And so I started a podcast and this is back in 2016. And so we launched the site for podcasts. And yeah, within five days, we had a bit of a, I had a bit of a strategy there and a bit of a plan. And we've managed to reach our goal there within, you know, five days of hitting new and noteworthy on iTunes and it stayed there for two years. And, you know, a few years down the track now we've got recorded 280 odd episodes. And we're certainly the largest business trade podcast in the country and one of the largest, probably in the world.

Ryan: Love that. So you had this journey where you started out in the trades, saw that there were other people that weren't getting the support they wanted. And so you just set out to solve the problem yourself. And it sounds like you were really successful at it. Lots of resources, lots of great training and education. Now that you've been through this, because we don't talk to a lot of marketing companies or marketing experts that just focus on the trades. So now that you've been through this, what would you say is one of the biggest myths about marketing for the trades?

Trades Marketing Myths Busted

Matt: Oh, man, there's a lot of myths, to be honest. I think one of the biggest obstacles that trade businesses have is in relaying and communicating how good they are at what they do. And I think that's the biggest, one of the biggest things that we try to address is just helping guys get more proactive in the space of nurturing their customers, you know?

So, letting them know about the types of jobs that they do so they can start building trust and rapport with that not yet client. This is an issue that I think today, and I say this to guys all the time and I say this throughout, you know, on the podcast all the time, we live in the information age and like it or not, customers are coming to you or potential customers, visitors are coming to you because they're after information.

They want you, it's up to you guys to provide that input information for them, you know? They want to understand what it is you do. And so I keep saying, you know, yes, you're a plumber, yes, you're a builder, yes, you're an electrician, yes, you're landscape gardener, whatever it is, but you are also very heavily, very much an educator. You've got to consider what these guys seem to neglect these is, you know, the sales cycle.

They don't understand. And this is probably one of the most important things I can communicate to people, you know, if you're a builder, for example, and you've got people that are coming to you looking at maybe engaging you or somebody else, they're in the research phase, right? And they're looking to perhaps do a renovation on their home, or maybe they're looking to build a home. Now, it's pretty unrealistic to presume that that person is going to be ready to buy immediately, I mean, that sales cycle can sometimes take two years, three years, who knows, right?

So being proactive throughout the time in which they've initially come to you and the time they are ready to proceed, pull the trigger, go ahead, you know? I mean, that is very often the difference between winning a job and losing a job. And that's very much an education-based contact point. It's not so much you trying to ram proposals or discounts or quotes down their throat. It's about nurturing and building trust and rapport and letting those people understand what it is you do, how you do it, and perhaps getting content created which they can relate to, you know?

Ryan: So that leads me to this question. So I know a lot of guys in the trades. I know, a lot of business owners who, they are amazing at the work they do and every single client that they have, every single customer loves the work they do, they love the team, they love all of that. But they really struggle with what you're talking about, which is being able to communicate that to new prospective customers.

What's one thing that these guys could do that are struggling with essentially bragging about the quality of work that they do? What's one thing that they could do easily that would help them improve their message so they could get more of those prospective customers that are on that journey?

Building Project Galleries

Matt: The easiest way to do it and the way that we do it in the way that we teach our clients and the way that we do this for a lot of our clients is we build project galleries. And I'm not talking about when you go to a website and you see, you know, a bunch of photos sitting on a website, like I'm talking about a well-constructed page on a website which has images that relate to a certain project, it's got content that relates to a certain project that's been optimized for a service and the location. And it's just a really nice story of one project.

And now that is, and that's super valuable because if somebody comes along to you and they say, hey Ryan, hey Jeremy, have you guys ever done a first-floor addition in Tucson, Arizona, you can say Well, yeah, actually, I've done quite a few. Here's some links to some projects that we've done. Have a look at these and see if that relates to what you're potentially looking at. And you can't make that stuff up. I mean, you guys know probably better than anyone, you can go to a website and you can see a whole bunch of, you know, made up testimonials on somebody's website with some stock images of people that look happy.

And you think, Okay, well, that's clearly made up. But you can't make up a well-created project gallery, you know, with a client video testimonial at the bottom of it and that kind of thing. So that's a really, really easy thing for people to do because they're already doing the work, they just got to capture it. The caveat is, if it doesn't become part of the process, it doesn't get done.

And by that, I mean, if it's not part of the projects, the way the projects flow, if it doesn't become part of the project process, it will always get relegated in the list of important things to do. And so I say to people all the time, you know, I don't care if you do it, if we do it, I don't really care who does it, just get it done. And, you know, make it part of your process so that it does get done because this isn't a game of well, I'll do it when I've got time. Like, this has to be done as importantly as invoicing the client, you know? So make it part of the process.

Ryan: Totally makes sense. And I love putting those marketing activities into the process. Something we teach our clients is you got to automate what's important and the way you automate that is by creating a system or a process around it so that it gets done. So I think that that project gallery is a great idea for people that are selling clients, people are already talking to.

What's something that you think these trades-based businesses could do to help them increase the amount of prospects that are coming to them, maybe even the amount of phone calls or emails that they're getting? I know you've got some pretty amazing results around Google that you shared with us earlier. But what are some things, maybe it's that, what are some things that they could do to help drive more business to their business?

Matt: I think that's another really big misconception. And I, although we are a marketing agency, and we do very proactively generate leads for clients and build web presence and that kind of stuff. However, I can fundamentally say for 80% of the people out there, they don't have a lead problem, they've got a conversion problem.

Ryan: What's that mean?

Building a Website That Converts

Matt: And by that, I mean, if they've got a website that isn't capturing information, it's not educating, it's not nurturing, it's not leading people to the next step, then their website's not converting. So they could be getting enough traffic or they could be getting enough eyes on their websites but they're not that, those eyes are not taking the next step. They're not filling in a webform, they're not picking up a phone call, they're not downloading a resource, they're not doing something.

And so that's one of the first things we always look at with clients. We look at what their current assets are. And to be honest with you in 99% of the cases, well, I wouldn't say 99% but I'd say probably close to 80 odd percent of the times, when we bring on a new SEO client, we build their website as part of the package. We'll say, look, we can do SEO on this website. Sure. But we just know that this website is not a converting website and you'll be wasting your money because we can get the traffic to it, but the traffic won't convert once it gets there.

And this is really common mistake that a lot of people make. They think it's all about leads. They're in this churn and burn mindset. And it's not always about churn and burn. You know, they don't consider Well, if I can improve my conversions on this website from one in 10 to two in 10, that's 100% more work than I was going to be getting and I haven't done anything but improve the conversion of our website.

Ryan: Okay. So it sounds like the website is really the core of all of the marketing activities that you're talking about. Is that fair?

Matt: I'm sorry, it's the core of any marketing activity that anyone will ever talk about.

Ryan: Okay, all right. Fair enough. Fair enough. Now, I know a lot of business owners who have been burned by a marketing guy or two. They spent a lot of money on a website, the leads never showed up, the conversions never happened. And so if there's anyone listening right now that is thinking, you know what, that's great.

I've heard that websites like that exist. But I don't have one. Without having to go reinvest in a brand new website, what are some tips you can offer them? Maybe they can go back to their marketing guy or go back to their web guy and Like, Hey, I heard Matt talk about this, we need to make this change because it will really help us with our conversions. Does something like that exist? And if so, can you share that?

Matt: There's a number of things like, there's fundamental conversion elements, right? So when you look at things like, and all you got to do is really put yourself in your customer's position. Okay, well, you know, how, what does my customer look like and what are they, how are they coming to me? How are they potentially coming to me?

So, okay, well, they're coming from a referral, maybe somebody's given them a referral to like, say, hey, go and call Matt at, like a networking event or something like that. Okay, we know statistically that before they call me, they're going to Google me. So what does that look like? Maybe they pulled out their phone and they've Googled me. So okay, how does my website look from a phone point of view? Is it responsive? Does it have contact features? Can I click a button on the website and it will call? Do I have a way to fill in a contact form?

If I want them to reach out to me, I don't want to speak to them right now, because I'm busy but I want to fill in a form and one of them get back to me. Do I facilitate that? Do I have anything valuable on the website which speaks to my avatar? Do I have a resource which is useful to them, which I can offer them in exchange for some sort of contact detail, or we can put them into some sort of education, nurturing sequence or something like that. So fundamental things, you know? I would actually advise people today to, and we used to do this and we learned the hard way.

But, you know, social media links on websites, people think, Oh, this is great. We've got a really good Facebook page. What we find is, putting Facebook on your links to Facebook right at the very top of your website basically means that people go ah, cool. Let's go see their Facebook page. And then as we all know, the next minute, they're watching videos of cats and they never come back. So we sort of encouraged to not make got like a front and center showpiece of the website these days.

Ryan: Keep them on your site and let the website do its job. So a couple of points of clarification because I'm a little bit into the marketing world. I just, you'd mentioned responsive. And for those listening that don't know what that means, it means it looks amazing on a mobile device. Is that right, Matt?

Matt: Well, it means it will respond to the device that you're on. So if you've got a mobile phone, your website will, it will change its orientation and it will look fine on a mobile. If you're on a tablet, it will change its orientation and it will look fine on a tablet. If you're on a laptop, same deal.

Ryan: So the days of pinching and zooming on your phone to look into a website, like we got to move on past that.

Matt: Gone. You're kidding yourself.

Ryan: And another term you used was avatar. And if you could just define what that is when we're talking about marketing.

Matt: Yeah, so avatar is basically, you know, who is your customer? Have you clearly defined who your customer is? What they look like, where they hang out, what their traits are, you know, what their age demographic is, what their cultural background is. All this kind of thing. The reason that's important is because it will essentially, dictate your messaging throughout your website, the way you talk, the way you communicate your branding, everything. And so it's really important to have a clear understanding of, you know, who your ideal customer is so when you're creating your message, you can speak to that customer.

Ryan: Okay. No, I love that. So you really got to be dialed into who they are so that your messaging is right and they get it. And I would imagine that goes back to that project page you were talking about. If you don't know who you're creating that for, it makes it harder to create it.

Matt: Yeah. I mean, the project page, ideally, you've created that project for an ideal customer, you know? So if you're doing, what if you've got the right message with, if your messaging is correct, you're attracting the right people, then you're creating projects for the right people. So then you basically just, that's where it starts to roll, you know?

Ryan: Yeah, no, it totally makes sense. So we're talking a lot about marketing website being the core of all of your marketing, whether it's online or not. One of the things that I do over at Core Matters is I put a marketing approach to finding the right people, particularly craft workers and tradesmen. And so we put marketing behind the recruiting process. And I know that you do something like that as well to help them hire. Is that correct?

Creative Recruiting Tactics

Matt: Definitely. Absolutely. Yeah, it's, I mean, hiring and recruiting is very much a marketing exercise, if, and the difference there being, you know, over the years, I've learned that it's especially relevant for, we spoke to thousands of business, trade businesses from all over the planet yearly.

And the common complaint is, I just can't find enough guys. I just don't have enough staff. It just doesn't matter what market they're in, doesn't matter what industry, it's always the same conversation. However, now all of a sudden, for the first time in my working career, anyway, I've actually seen a bit of a shift due to this whole COVID situation where now all of a sudden, there is talent available.

And for the first time ever, there's people that are actually looking for employment. And now being creative in the way that you need to recruit these people and being creative in the way that you bring them, attract them, that is very much a defining point of, I suppose, a defining position for you as a company because you're in a situation now where you could potentially hire these people that you've been wanting to for so long, but they haven't been around.

So treating it as a marketing exercise is very much sort of taking the emphasis off, I'm looking for someone with a job, as to I'm looking for someone that wants to come and join our amazing team, you know? Like, it's really about attracting that people into the vision of, I suppose, what your company is looking to do and where they might fit within that ecosystem.

Ryan: Sure. Yeah. And one of the things that we found, and I'm sure you see this as well, is a lot of times the issue isn't so much not being able to find guys but there's also an element of being able to keep them. Now, I get things have changed in the last few months, but historically, that's been an issue for them as well. Do you see that when you're talking to people about this?

Matt:  100%. And the paradigm there, the shift is well, you're offering, if you try to offer people a job, the guy down the road is offering $5 more an hour, you know, that employee which will jump ship then because essentially, you're both offering a job and he's offering more money. If you can make that shift from trying to offer a job to offering a career, that's a different game because you're giving someone a career path as opposed to a job, then they're not going to jump ship for five bucks an hour because they bought into the vision.

They can see where the company's going, they can see where their role is evolving to. Like, they might be a manager in the next, they look at, you know, you've shown them the org chart, they can see where they sit on the org chart, they can see that the next step up for them is a management position, so on and so forth.

Ryan: So you mentioned something, my ears perked up for a second, because Jeremy and I both do vision work. Jeremy's is so much more just dialed in and helping the leadership team get the vision of the organization so that they can get the right people on the bus. But I often get pushback like, Oh, we don't need this vision thing. It's not that important. I don't know why we're doing it. But you made it sound like getting someone bought into the vision is a big deal. So how is that impacted by the marketing that they're doing?

Matt: I mean, marketing for recruitment, you mean? Yeah, yeah. Well, it's essential, really, because, from the get-go, you're creating a culture. And so you're attracting people that, like what you guys are putting out there in the sense, like, wow, these guys actually, like who, like know what I mean, this is I mean, part of my recruiting process, too. Like, we get people all the time, they're like, I can't believe you guys. I've never seen anything like this. Like as a recruiting process, I've never seen anything like this. Like this is, and I just want to buy into it.

Like, if this is what the recruitment process is like, we can't wait to be part of a team, you know? And so you're immediately building culture and you're attracting people that want to be part of that culture, part of that shift. So you don't, I mean, sure, you don't have to do it. But I mean, how's that working out for you, you know? So, I'd say, you really got to try and think outside the box and think how can we differentiate what we're offering to what our competitors are offering? Because, I mean, on paper, a job is a job. We're offering so much more than a job and we want to communicate that in marketing.

You know, we're not looking for, you know, we're not looking for an apprentice or we're not looking for, you know, maintenance plumber or hot water specialist. You know, we're really looking for somebody that can come and join our team, a growing businesses that, you know, has leadership qualities that could, you know, that can come into the organization here is a technician, but within 12 months, we want them to be running a team of five technicians. They like really start communicating that.

Ryan: Got it. So we've talked about a lot of things today, everything from websites and getting your website to actually convert for you so you can get more customers project pages, I mean, ways to promote how good you are. And now, we're talking about hiring. And all of it is impacted by the marketing your company is doing. So for those people listening right now, if they, if there was one thing that you wanted them to go do in the next week, what is the one thing that they need to do now, to drive their business forward and start getting the results that you've been talking about?

Building an Org Chart

Matt: You know, everything rises and falls off the organizational chart. And this is something that I've learned over the years where, essentially, if you can map out what your company currently looks like and what you want it to look like, it gives you a lot of position of leverage in the space of where we need to be bringing people in. Okay, we need to be adding team members in here because I want to be removing myself from that part.

What does that mean? Okay, great, it means that we need to increase our turnover so that we can afford to bring a person in, which means we need to increase our marketing spend, which means we need to improve our conversion and we change some of our messaging. Like, it dictates everything. So it's quite a comprehensive process.

And for those of you, for those of the listeners out there that are not familiar, when I say org chart, I'm talking about, like, basically the people within your organization, the people within your company, where are they at the moment? Every company has departments, and whether you know it or not, if you're a one-man-band, you might be across all of those departments. But ideally, if you ever want to remove yourself from any one of those departments, you've got to have people in places that could do it and basically remove you from it, otherwise, you will never be able to step away from it.

So understanding that and understanding where those people need to fit into that process gives you a huge position of power because you can say okay, well, I don't want to be doing my accounts, record, my accounts, basically, within the next 12 months. I hate accounts. I'm a plumber. I want to be managing the guys. Okay, that's my strength. Great. So how am I gonna remove myself from doing this finance garbage that I cock up every month? So you need to map that out with your org chart.

Okay, well, this is the person that I'm hiring for it. I need an accounts receivable lady, I need an accounts payable person. And they need to have specific roles and responsibilities within their job that they need to be doing every day, every week, every month. And if they can do that and I can train them how to do that, it means I never have to do it again. I can just come in, at a glance overview, check the reporting, make sure everything's running fine and then I can go back to focusing on what I want to focus on. And without that, it's very hard to remove yourself.

Ryan: I totally get it. So now that people have heard this, I mean, there's ways to get ahold of you if they want to learn more about you, see some of the strategies that you have. How do people connect with you? And then also, do you have any free tools or any support resources that they can subscribe to?

Matt: Yeah, we do. I mean, there's, we have a huge, well, I won't say huge, but there's 6000 global trade business owners within our Facebook community, which is The Site Shed. It's a private Facebook group. You can head across there, request to join and Maddie will let you in there. So there's always amazing high-level conversations that are going on in that group. We've also got tons of resources over at thesiteshed.com.

We've got resources over at tradiewebguys.com.au. We're constantly building out resources there as well. We've recently just created The Ultimate Guide to Hiring, actually ironically, so where we take, it's basically a course which takes people through some of the fundamental things that we've learned over the years.

Some of those I've just mentioned on the call just now. But you can find me. I'm, we're pretty much everywhere. The Site Shed is a very well-established website. That's thesiteshed.com. Or the podcast and stuff are over there. There's a resource section on that page with dozens and dozens of awesome resources. Yeah, we pretty much, and The Site Shed across everything, all social media. So yeah, I'm not hard to find.

Ryan: I was just gonna say, so you're an easy guy to find if someone wants to talk to you or get some help. Well, hey, Matt, I really enjoyed the conversation today. Learned a lot about marketing and how it's got the implications throughout the entire business. And then I love what you said there at the end about the org chart and just making sure that your business is ready to scale. Thanks again for being our guest today. Really enjoyed it.

Matt: Thanks, guys. Keep up the good work.

Voiceover: The Blue Collar Culture Podcast is sponsored by bluecollarculture.com. We help entrepreneurs create a healthy culture and build a self-managing business. To learn more, go to bluecollarculture.com.

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