Blue Collar Culture

Business Results the Old Fashioned Way

Sima Dahl | The Most Dangerous Myths About Branding

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Branding is all about a promise made, says marketing expert and executive coach Sima Dahl. 

That’s whether you’re talking about a company’s brand, the business owner or team members’ personal brand, or the employer brand that employees believe in.

With branding so key in establishing your company in the marketplace, it’s vital that you take it seriously. Employees can become brand ambassadors for the business on social media, for example, says Sima. But that’s just the start. 

We get into the nitty-gritty, including…

  • A strategy for retaining Rockstar Employees 
  • Why the onboarding process for new employees is key (and it starts earlier than you think)
  • How to counteract bad reviews on Glassdoor.com
  • The most dangerous threat to a business owner’s personal brand
  • And more

Listen now…

Mentioned in this episode:

 

Transcript

Ryan Englin: Welcome back to another episode of the Blue Collar Culture Podcast. I'm your co-host, Ryan Englin, and I am here with Jeremy Macliver.

Jeremy Macliver: Welcome back, everyone.

Ryan: So we're going to have a conversation today about marketing. And as you know, that's one of the topics that I'm very, very passionate about. But we're going to take a little bit of a different angle, a little bit different perspective on marketing. Our guest today is an award-winning marketer and they paved the way for Sway Factor. This is her groundbreaking strategies that empower professionals to stand out, stay relevant and be in demand. So I want to welcome to today's show, Sima Dahl. Thanks for being here today.

Sima Dahl: Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you, Ryan and Jeremy, for hosting me.

Ryan: So as I said, marketing is a topic that I'm very passionate about. We do it a lot when we're recruiting people. And I know that you talk about personal brand, employer brand and how that impacts business. So what is one of the biggest myths that you want to break down for us right now?

Branding Myths Busted

Sima: That is my favorite question. I think one of the biggest myths is that empowering your employees to have a personal brand is in some way, shape or form detrimental to the organization and that you as a business owner, or business leader, don't need a personal brand. I would argue that everybody has a personal brand and the business owner who takes that into consideration and leverages that power of that brand to tell their corporate story, their clear brand story is leaps and bounds ahead of their competition.

Ryan: Wow. So let's do this real quick. Let's break this down. So help us understand what you mean when you say branding. And then talk about the difference between personal brand and employer brand if there is even a difference.

Sima: Sure. Well, I like to use the word promise to describe a brand, right? When your brand is well known, there's a promise for a certain quality product or service. And as an employer, you have an employer brand that is a promise for the experience I will have when I'm working in your organization. You know, is the story on the street the same as the one, you know, behind the HR office wall?

And the individual personal brand is the promise that you make for who you are, what you bring to the table. I like to call it, you know, equal parts character, competence and charisma. And we all have a, you know, a work ethic. We have skills and experience, and we're either somebody you want to work with or somebody you really want to avoid. And so I really think it's just the word promise. But the brands are different because the goals are different.

Ryan: I think that's great. I love that word promise. Often, I talk to employers about the promises that are made intentionally but then also those implied promises, the ones that you don't necessarily talk about but your brand makes for you, if you will. Can we talk about that for a second? What are your thoughts on that? Like, what kind of promises do I need to be aware of that my brand is making for me or that I'm making when I'm talking to people in the marketplace?

Create and Nurture a Good Brand Story

Sima: Well, that's interesting because I usually approach the question from a negative perspective. So, you know, a lot of business owners aren't necessarily aware of the stories being told about them, but not in front of them. So if you think about a Glassdoor or indeed.com situation where employees are saying, you know, it's difficult to work here, management says they're open-door, but they're closed-door. The hours are grueling, benefits are poor. That's, you know, those stories are stories you have to be willing to hear and willing to address.

Ryan: So how do we get to hear those stories? I mean, by the time it's on Glassdoor it's almost a little too late, is it not?

Sima: Well, I don't think so. I think Glassdoor and similar websites is an opportunity. Now, without getting into Glassdoor makes money, it is a bit of a pay to play model. So the employees are gamed into sharing memories and feedback about prior employers so that they can see the same information about potential future employers. Now on the employer side, you have to buy, you know, a certain service level, have a certain level account to be able to address any of the negativity in public so others can see that you acknowledge it, you're working on it.

But I think when you leave negative information about your business, and oftentimes you and your business are inseparable, you know, for the business as we're talking about. Like, your name is that business and vice versa. So when you leave something like that unattended or unanswered, I think that's when damage happens. But when you acknowledge somebody for what they had to say, Whether you disagree or agree, and then if there is a pattern when you address it, I mean, that's all anybody can expect from a business owner is to see something that needs changing and change it.

Ryan: Yeah, no, I think that's great. And in case any of our listeners don't know, Glassdoor is a review website for employees to review your company, your leadership and the things that people don't see when they're just a customer. So very similar to Yelp, but on the employer side, on the employee side. Let's dig into that a little bit. So let's talk about now, so if somebody's posted something on my website, it impacts my brand.

I love what you said that, especially in smaller businesses, the brand is often associated very closely with the owner. I mean, even when you've got 500 or 1000 employees, still that owner is often very much visible. So if something comes up, you said it's not too late if it shows up on Glassdoor, another employee review website. What are some things we need to do or think about when that happens?

Lead by Example

Sima: I like to think about what you can be doing all the time to strengthen your employer brand story so that when the occasional, you know, angry fired employee mouth off online, there's, it may fall on deaf ears because you have such a good foundation underneath you already. But I like to encourage employers to think about that first 90-day experience of bringing a new hire on and some, just some fundamental training around, you know, we're so glad you're here and we value you, we treasure you. And to that, we also value and treasure the people, you know, who may also want to work here.

You know, every employee stands as a talent magnet unto themselves. So encouraging those people to update their LinkedIn, if they're on LinkedIn, and to share the news that they've joined the firm and why they're excited. And if their first 90 days have been rewarding to go on Glassdoor and share that. You can't force those behaviors, but the individual employee often won't think of it unless you suggest it. So real simple onboarding suggestions and processes and a tiny bit of training goes a really long way.

Ryan: Oh, that's fantastic. And when you were talking about that, what I heard was be intentional about your brand.

Sima: Yes. be intentional about it and lead by example.

Ryan: Yes. And then it reminds me too, of a story. I do a workshop that everybody wants to hire rock star employees. I don't know if you've heard that term before. You know that A players, the top talent. And but then they're disappointed when rock stars don't stick around. And I always ask them, did you treat them like a rock star? We do more celebrating when people leave than we do when people show up.

You know, people that are good, they know it and they want to be celebrated. And I think you should celebrate them. I mean, that's a great time to do that is that onboarding. I love that 90 days experience. So give us some tips and some tactics, some things that you've seen working around this 90-day onboard to be really intentional. I mean, you'd mentioned ask them to update their LinkedIn, you ask them give us a Glassdoor review. What are some other things they can do?

Sima: If a company has social media feeds suggesting that they follow and like and share. Now, if you have an employee, and listen, I have plenty of clients who'd rather stick a hot poker in their eye than get on Twitter. So I respect that, okay? But if you have a Facebook, you know, for your business, if you have a company page, then take care of it and remind employees, it's there. And share photos, not just as open job requisitions and completed projects and, you know, service-focused photos, but also of your people.

And when people see themselves online, they enjoy it, they share it with their friends and family. You know, I think it's interesting in an onboarding situation to ask employees what social media they do or don't use because the idea that an entire group of people just doesn't use it because of their sex or their age, you know, or their career decisions is flat out bunk. And I do think that the more you have your employees be brand ambassadors, and talent magnets, socials a great easy way to do that.

I also will look at a client's website, and you and I talked about this before we started recording but the website experience to even apply to the job knowing most people are doing it from a mobile phone or a tablet, that's the place to start. You know, what is my experience there? What story am I telling there? And then the hiring process, don't ghost me. You know, those first 90 days, treat me like you said is a rock star and ask me how it's going. You know, so many people hire the people give them the keys to the, you know, to the service closet and then they're done.

Ryan: Yeah. It reminds me of a story. It was one of those inside jokes, but mostly true. I used to have a client and the way they onboarded somebody was if they showed up on the first day of the work and could catch the keys to the company vehicle like they knew they were a keeper. And that was as far as they went was tossing them the keys and said good luck.

Sima: I remember one of my earliest jobs in the heady days in HR, when you ask for HR, they pointed to a filing cabinet. Okay, you know? You got to treat people a little bit more, you know, the number one thing I hear from clients is that when people leave, and it's for anything other than, you know, a salary situation which nobody wants to compete for talent just on money because that's a losing game.

But when employees leave because they didn't feel heard, or they didn't feel they fit in with their culture, anything that the organization can be paying better attention to and fix, I mean, that's a real gut punch. You know, it's too late when they're walking out the door.

Ryan: Yeah. Yeah, I tell people onboarding starts the second that person applies for the job. And it's that experience. I love that you mentioned that earlier was that experience that you create, whether it's intentional or not, there's an experience that's being created. And the good ones, they'll stick around and if it's a bad experience, they won't, Absolutely. So when it comes to the onboarding, I just wanted to dig in this a little bit more.

What are some ways that you've seen people learn from what they're doing? So let's say that, you know, often I talk to clients, and they have high, high turnover. And there's a whole bunch of things that could impact that. I love that you said there's that 90 day period. What are some other things that you've seen work?

Sima: And just to make sure I understood the question, things that work to do exactly what?

Ryan: To keep them, to keep them engaged, to keep people long term because turnover is a big issue for a lot of the people that I talk to, and I'm sure there are people out there that are listening to this going, Yeah, I get these people, I think they're amazing and three weeks later, they found another job. We talked about a little bit earlier, there's that idea that people leave for a quarter more an hour or $1 more an hour. I don't believe that. But I think you might have some thoughts on that, too and I'd just love for you to share some other things that you've seen really just engage people early on.

The Impact Company-Wide Communication Can Have On Employee Retention

Sima: Yeah. And actually, unfortunately, when you have an hourly worker and the competition up the street is offering more per hour, it can be challenging. And job-hopping is something I hear a lot of clients talking about. You know, they're not even getting a respectable two weeks, you know, one week, one day notice. They're just no showing, And so, that's a situation that isn't easily remedied but with respect to culture and connecting with employees, making them feel valued, there's a conversation around just company-wide communication.

So, you know, when, as a former corporate marketer, worked for enterprise, global enterprise software company and we have a, you know, a client database. Picture this situation, right? In every corner of the business wants to talk to that database and we all want to sell the widget we're responsible for. Well, I think, you know, there's, so there's a traffic cop, there's control, only so many people can talk to the client, you know, with that degree of frequency.

I think that same marketing mentality can work with respect to your employees. So, you know, you have, you know, a certain number of employees and you can segment by where they are in their employee journey. And just because they've been with you for nine years doesn't make them forever employees. So how do you need to communicate to your, you know, your employees you've been around for a while and those just beginning the journey with you and literally having like a schedule or a plan of attack.

Because often what I hear is the ownership isn't transparent or I didn't understand why we can't do this, or we can do that. And so well, did you ask? Well, there's nobody to ask, right? And so there's this sort of a three-ring circus happening where nobody knows who to talk to whom about what, let alone when. And so that's where I think, you know, leadership and HR, more and more with the HR departments being sort of a blended hire with some marketing skills or a stronger partnership between HR and marketing. To think more like marketing to the people you've recruited because they matter to you.

Ryan: Yeah, I, you know, it's funny, Jeremy and I just had this conversation about marketing and communications fatigue. And so how often is the right amount of, what's the right frequency, what's, how often those kinds of things when you're communicating via email or text message with the people you market to. But I love what you said because I don't think, we always think well wait a minute, that same concept, that same idea of segmenting our employees and figuring out how frequently, what kind of message we should be sending to each one of them how that makes a difference.

Sima: Yeah, and through what media channel. Increasingly, business leaders are using video in live town hall, you know, moderated, post your questions anonymously, you know, to really make people feel part of the business. You know, there's a fine line where, you know, if I'm running a 50-million privately-held company, I'm not sharing my entire financials with everybody, right?

But to the extent that I want the individual to understand how they contribute to our success and why the key metrics are the key metrics and how they're measured and how everybody can help grow the company in so doing, grow their slice of the pie. I think we have an old guard that's just unaccustomed to behaving in that way, whereas more progressive leaders understand hiring and keeping your staff is more work than it ever used to be. There are all manner of statistics about some, I think it's 65% of people who apply to your company are just kicking tires to see if they can get something better.

And that's a colossal and expensive waste of time. So really making, like you said, the entire application process map to the hire in their needs and that onboarding, so critical, but it doesn't end there. Just like I tell employees, you know, you network to find a job and then you get inside the company and all of a sudden you stop networking and you don't know any of your colleagues or co-workers, you don't need the bosses and the other lines of business. And that's short-sheeting your career trajectory. I think the same holds true for the recruiters to just think, well, you're here now and that's good enough.

Ryan: Yeah, I was thinking when you were talking about that, the employees have taken their career advancement much more into their hands. Like the modern workforce is much more in tune with it. It's not the way it was 20 or 30 years ago, where it's like, I got to put in my dues, I've got to be here for 20 years then this this this and then I'll get my pension, I'll retire. And I think the modern workforce is much more in tune with what they want and they are, because at the speed at which information is transferred these days, they're able to tell very quickly, am I in the right place or not?

Career Paths Aren’t as Linear as They Used to be

Sima: Absolutely. I mean, career paths used to be linear. So you start in a career and you're in your growth stage and then, you know, you move into some sort of like position of power or maturity or leadership and then the model literally shows people in the declining years of employment. And it just cracks me up. Who talks about the declining years? There are no, there's no such thing. We can change on a dime. And, you know, everybody sits on a chair with wheels.

That's how I visualize it. And I can roll up to a job and push back when it no longer serves me. And I think companies that are really progressive thinkers in this regard will talk to their employees about alternate paths within the organization. I mean, just because you can no longer work in the field doesn't mean you wouldn't be an amazing asset in helping us screen candidates or train new hires or some people just want to take on a different role and we never give them the chance to tell us that.

Jeremy: No, I totally agree with that, Sima. Sometimes when we hear it we think, oh, that's all just for those office people that they have all of that opportunity and they're looking at it. We're in a new era for them. But digging ditches, fixing HVAC air conditioners, fixing the sink, well, that's still the same. That part's still the same but what's changed is the opportunity and the way that people look at it. I believe that fundamentally, we've transferred from this where I go to the job and my boss has all of the cards to now, no, I have some of the cards.

I know the other opportunities that are out there and I can jump for $1 or whatever. And they can kind of keep their feelers out at all times, which makes us have to be way more competitive on other things besides the money. So I love how you bring it down. We bring it into, its reality in every area of the business. It's not just the corporate white collar quote-unquote,

Sima: No, not at all. I mean, you know, I know so many people who are frontline workers who, you know, will say oh, a super cool thing happened to work. I just got tapped to lead a task force about some new safety regulation that came out or, you know, I'm going to mentor, I'm going to do a six-month rotation as a new-hire mentor or, you know, keeping people engaged and intellectually stimulated is available to all of us.

Jeremy: Absolutely. We did that with, I used to run a steel company and, you know, we're doing structural steel, miscellaneous steel type work, and lots of turnover. We ended up taking the journeyman, we end up starting an apprenticeship program, let me backtrack that. I'm thinking that we're gonna get all of this great talent through just training our own workforce, right? Where we got most of our bang for a buck and the most value out of it was actually from the journeyman because they were the ones that we use to mentor to teach.

They became way more engaged, way more knowledgeable. They began to kind of refresh, dust off some old books, get a little bit more experienced, follow processes tighter and they began telling other people about how they were getting promoted to this new level and they were giving and helping because I think that's innate all of us. And so we actually got more out of the apprenticeship program by crashing more journeyman than we did apprentices. We had tons of apprentices but it was great to have that journeyman level that all of a sudden had a little bit of pride to their job.

Sima: Right, right. And, you know, treating the apprentices like VIPs because, you know, that's, we all know, it's a tough road out of your apprenticeship and needed encouragement and they need more senior, like you said, journeymen, they can speak to and just really building like that culture of camaraderie and support, being mindful of healthy competition. And I know that a lot of the work that you and Jeremy do, so I'm preaching to the choir. But it really is important. And if you want to run in and grow business and leave a legacy, you can leave this to chance.

Ryan: Of course. And you know, I'm thinking about just the conversation you and Jeremy just had right there. We started talking about branding and then we moved into being intentional about your brand and it's come full circle to, it impacts everywhere in the organization, everyone in the organization, just the way you think about the way communication happens, the way leadership happens, the way you represent yourself. So what you're talking about with this employer branding and even the personal branding side of it is, it gets into all levels of the organization. Is that fair?

Sima: I think they're inextricable these days. I don't think a company, you know, listen, we've got a lot going on as a society right now with the global pandemic and other social justice issues confronting each and every one of us, and I don't think, you know, we're seeing business leaders make, what some would say, you know, a bad statement, or, you know, being tone-deaf during this time. And that takes the entire company and that has the employees feeling they're working for someplace that doesn't, is no longer in alignment with values, with their values, their commitment, how they're wired.

If it doesn't feel good to work for the company, then it's just like, it lowers the barrier to change. So when we really think about leadership, being spokespeople, not just for the company, but as the leaders themselves, here's who I am, here's what I stand for. We're building a company that's in alignment with that and you're here because we see that in you and that end to end circle congruity if you will. Today is the branding. He can't have one without looking at the others.

Ryan: I love the way you break that down at the end. So, Sima, I've really enjoyed our time today. And I know that there are people listening going, Okay, she's got something here. Like, there's something that is connecting with me. I want to learn more. How do people get ahold of you? How do they learn more about this personal branding, employer branding concepts you're talking about?

Sima: Well, you know, this is where having a strange name comes in handy. Not so much when you're in the third grade. But I am easily found at Sima Dahl my name, .com. That's SIMADAHL.com. And when you search for Sima Dahl on LinkedIn or Facebook or Twitter, Instagram, you're going to find me. If you do visit my website, I invite you to take a five-day challenge to increase what I call your sway factor. Which is, you know, my measure of how well your personal brand and your behavior are in alignment. And so I would invite you to join me on that journey because it starts with you.

Ryan: Awesome. Thanks again for being our guest today. I really enjoyed the conversation. And for those of you listening out there, go check out Sima's website, get in on that five-day challenge. Personal branding and employer branding can do amazing things for your business and especially when it comes to retaining the best employees. Thanks again, Sima.

Sima: It was my pleasure. You gentlemen have a great day.

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