Blue Collar Culture

Business Results the Old Fashioned Way

Spencer Horn | The Secret of Intentional Hiring

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When it comes to leading a team, says business consultant and executive coach Spencer Horn, you can’t just get some advice or a quick training. There are no “tricks” to managing people and processes. 

Instead, you have to understand people and why they act in certain ways… and don’t act in crucial situations. It is also important to examine yourself – your personality and tendencies. 

Could your own habits be stopping you from being the most effective you can be?

Spencer takes a deep dive into those topics in our chat. And we also discuss…

  • How to practice “intentional hiring”
  • Why money isn’t a great motivator (and what to use instead)
  • The right questions to ask during job interviews
  • A technique for bringing new perspectives to your decision-making
  • And more

Listen now…

Mentioned in this episode:

Transcript

Ryan Englin: Welcome back to another episode of the Blue Collar Culture Podcast. I'm your co-host Ryan Englin and I'm joined by Jeremy Macliver.

Jeremy Macliver: Welcome back.

Ryan: And today we are so excited to have Spencer Horn as a guest of ours. Spencer is currently the president of Altium Leadership. He's previously been CEO of Leadership Development Company and vice president of a NASDAQ company which developed IMAX Theaters in tourist destinations. There he worked with major organizations such as IMAX, National Geographic Television, Radio City Productions, Disney Films and more.

He has been speaking professionally for 11 years. His experience is valuable to business leaders and their teams as he shares insights and knowledge that can be immediately applied. His engaging and interactive style contributes to him being in high demand as a speaker, trainer, and coach. Spencer, thank you for joining us today.

Spencer Horn: Thank you for having me. Now, come on, right? You know me. You don't have to read all that stuff about me. You know me.

Ryan: But it's such a great resume. I was really excited to share that. And

Spencer: You gotta do that crap sometimes. But, you know, what were you gonna say?

Ryan: I was gonna say, I apparently don't know you that well, because I didn't know some of that stuff about you. So I think it's great. But the one thing I can say is you are a very down to earth guy, which is awesome. So even though you have that impressive resume, you really can connect with people at a real personal level. And I love that about you. So let's start with the question I ask everybody at the beginning here. Tell us a little bit about your story, your journey, how you got to do what you're doing right now?

Sometimes the Journey Doesn’t Start With an Active Choice

Spencer: Yeah, so much of life is accident, right? I mean, I have lots of work experience in different fields. And I moved to Las Vegas about 14 years ago to actually work in a nonprofit, something that I'd never done before. And I was there for about a year and a half. And, you know, there was a challenge, somebody was dishonest in the business, which is, you know, more common than you might think. And so the president of the board was afraid and he said, you know, we gotta let you go, because it was, you know, supposedly under my watch. I left, and this is the only time in my life I had never, that I had been without a job like four months.

And about a year later, they came back to Hey, please come back. And I'm like, no, sorry. I've moved on. But at the time, it was really hard. And so I had a great friend in Las Vegas that introduced me to a leadership training and development company. And that was in 2008. And so I started working for this company and fell in love with it. They hired me to do organizational development training because of, you know, just my different experience working with training and starting businesses and building IMAX theaters.

We built it in Canada, the US so I had a lot of opportunity to work with construction companies and a lot of blue collar stuff as well as management. And I loved that and so I started working there. And then the recession hit in 2008. And they asked me to go into the sales side because, you know, the company's sales were tanking. It was not a good time to look for another job.

I just been through that. And so I started sales and I didn't have a whole bunch of clients, I mean, that I was doing and that's how they did their business, they got referrals. So I had to figure out a way of getting clients and I started to that end, I started speaking because I felt like, you know, if you get on the stage and you can present credibility, then people would want to do business with you.

And it worked. And so I started coaching and training along with that, and that sells. And eventually became the CEO of that company. And in 2015, left to start my own company. So we've been in business almost for about five years. We, you know, consult, train, really about team performance, everything that has to do with helping organizations be more effective. So that's a little bit how I got started in this.

Ryan: That's cool. And you and I actually met when you were at that leadership development company, and

Spencer: That's right.

Ryan: We've gotten to know each other over the years but one of the things that is really, got us to grow our relationship is just love for understanding human behavior. You understand human behavior at a level like not a lot other people do, which is fantastic. And one of the things I think a lot of businesses miss out on is understanding the root of who people are and why they make the decisions that you do. Can you talk a little bit about that when it comes to creating effective teams?

Steer Clear of the Impostor Syndrome

Spencer: Yeah, you know, absolutely. And thank you for saying that. It was working at that company, I, there was a lot of self-awareness that was created. And for my personality, that wasn't something that I was always comfortable looking at. You know, as a business leader, you just, you're supposed to have all the answers and come up with all the ideas.

So I saw it. And that's not true at all, but yet a lot of people feel like if they're in a leadership position, they have to look like, sound like, you know, they have all the answers and they know where they're going. And so sometimes there's what's called an imposter syndrome. You know, hope people don't find me out. So we don't open up about our weaknesses. And if you're a leader of a company, you know, you can't always go to your direct reports. Hey, you know, I need some help. And so I really started working with a coach.

And I became very, very aware of how I was behaving, Ryan and Jeremy, and how that was both helping my team and how I was getting in my own way as a leader. And so a lot of my behavioral tendencies, so all of us have behavioral tendencies that are fairly predictable. And they're developed over a lifetime. I mean, if you've ever had kids before, we literally come with our own personalities, with our own blueprint, then we come into an environment.

And that environment is, you know, my family's home, my parents and our schools. And by the time we're adolescents we've started behaving in certain ways that we've got rewarded for and we've got punished for. And those become these tendencies that can either help us and hurt us as we get into our younger years of life. And so for me, my behavioral tendencies were very comfortable taking charge and telling other people what to do, but that wasn't really great at creating engagement and team effort because I can't do it by myself. I need a team of people that are fired up and excited to work with me.

Well, if I'm the one who's controlling everything they do and how they do it there's not a lot of ownership on their part. And that can impact a team negatively. I had to come to that awareness myself and start working on me first. And as I saw that start making a positive change, I got excited about that. So what else is possible? How can I help the people that work with me and help them get out of their way and so that we can even be more high performing and better communication and deal with conflict even better? So that's how that started.

Ryan: Wow. And so you use this to help organizations create effective teams. Does that include helping them be able to hire better?

Spencer: Absolutely. So one of the things that happens with a lot of organizations is they feel like well, I know who I need to hire, you know? And they can sometimes inadvertently create an hour accidental culture because they hire a certain way that could reflect the personality and just certain tendencies of the leader. And believe me, you do not want to have a bunch of me on the team. A couple of us is great.

But if we're all the same that creates some challenges for an organization. So what happens sometimes, Ryan and Jeremy, is that people they sit in an interview all I like this guy or like this girl or this lady and you just have this gut feel that they're the right person. But it's typically because they're a lot like you and you have a lot in common. So we make errors in judgment because we want to bring people in that are just like us, and that's a problem. So when you use these tools, you can get very intentional about who you're hiring and why.

And you can hire into the organization people that have strengths that you don't have. Because if I'm a leader of an organization, I can't have all the answers. I need people to have different perspectives, come up with different ideas. Because of the solid, my shoulders, man, it's gonna get tired. I can't do all the lifting myself. I need other people to help me live. So this helps us be really aware of what our strengths are, where the holes in the organization because if we have a team, there's a team culture based on the combined, you know, behavioral tendencies of that team.

And there's going to be a culture that comes from that team. I walk into some organizations like a library as part of the culture, right? because they have a bunch of people with low dominance, low extraversion, they're all focused on detail and accuracy. You'll walk in other places, and it's like a party. You know, it has a huge amount to do with the type of people that you're hiring. And if your purposeful, if you know what you're doing, you can do that with intention. And it can make a huge impact in your results.

Ryan: So how would someone go about doing that? Because so we talked about culture a lot, and I think everybody has a sense of what culture is, but I don't know that everybody understands how to be intentional about culture. How do we do that?

Spencer: Well, so, you know, the team is a living organism. And its really, you have to look at the team as a system. So you can't, you know, and it's made up of individual people. If you take one person away, it's going to change that system. You add one person and it's going to change the system as well. So you want to measure what the behavioral tendencies of the team are. I mean, do you have a bunch of guys that are just high dominant and like to be in charge and don't want to be told what to do?

Well, you can anecdotally probably know what that is, but you can actually measure it with a degree of confidence that yes, this is what we have, or here's the profile that we have. There is a content, that there are consequences of our culture, right? It's how we think, it's how we behave. It's how we show up. It's how we solve problems, and some of those behavioral or cultural tendencies or behavioral tendencies are going to be very helpful, but at other times, they're going to be a hole. So the first thing to do is you measure it. Where are we? And become aware of who's who on the team.

Because if I were to ask you, you know, president of the company or CEO of the company, are there people on your team that you wish you could just duplicate, right? They're gonna say, Oh, yeah, I want Jeremy. I need another Jeremy. I need another Ryan. Well, great, what is it about them that is so helpful to the team, right? Are there people on your team that you just wish you could? That maybe weren't there but no matter what you say and do they do what they want anyway?

Well, what is it about that profile? And so you can start to see what, you know, the star performers are doing, and you can actually create, you can create models, right? So let's say you have specific jobs, you know, give me an example of some of your clients, maybe a superintendent, you know, construction company or project manager or, you know, different types of jobs. Are we

Jeremy: Let's talk about one of them maybe they're jumping on is like, you know, because I see this like a plumber because there's sales and they're technicians.

Spencer: Perfect. So you have a technical sales position, right? So one of the things you could do is you can actually create a model of the ideal technical sales plumber or air conditioning technician because a lot of those guys have to go out and they do installs but they also upsell and so it's a big part of what they do for a lot of small firms, right?

So you might look at your company and you might take your star performers and you look at their profiles, their behavioral profiles, and you put that into a survey, then you ask, you know, the leaders of the company, okay, if this is the type of job that we have, technical sales, you know, for plumber, air conditioning, or whatever it is, what do you think makes that person successful? What's your experience? And we ask them to take a survey.

And once we get all this data, we analyze it. For better word creates a Frankenstein, right? Because we've got all these different people in there. And it's, and we look at it and we talk about, okay, here's the outcome that we've created. They're like, oh, wow, that's a problem. We didn't look at it that way. I thought that was more important and this other person, you know, on the team thinks that this behavior, maybe they need to be more, they need to be a better listener.

This person thinks they need to be better, you know, persuasive. And so we actually get aligned as a management team of what it is that we value in that position. So that's one of the first things that we do is we get clear how we feel about it, about the position, and then we figure out where we're misaligned. And we adjust that model until we create the quote-unquote, perfect technician behavioral profile. Now, you can't go out and just start discriminating against people if they don't have that perfect profile.

First of all, that's, you can't do that according to the Equal Opportunity employment that's just, that's not allowed. But what you can do is once you know what that quote-unquote ideal is, you can start asking questions that to know if people are going to be a great fit or not a great fit for that. And that is completely defensible and allowable. So for example, Jeremy, you, if I'm hiring you to come and be my, you know, plumber technician sales guy, and you take the survey and you're out, let's say you don't have that persuasive characteristic that we're looking for.

But you're good with everything else. I could ask a specific question and the survey actually does it for me. So I don't have to think about it. And it's gonna say, Jeremy, tell me of a situation where you had to persuade someone to, you know, to make a decision. And tell me about that. And how did that go? And how did you do that? And what happens if you have an idea, you know, in your past role if you had an idea that you shared with the team and they rejected it, how did you handle that?

What that's going to do is going to give me the answers that I need to know if this person, even though they're, they don't have the quote-unquote perfect, persuasive profile, do they have the ability to do the job that I need them to do? Then I can say, this is the person that's right. I don't hire you based on how much I like you, I hire you based on your ability to do the work that you need to do at the job. And so it creates a much more systematic way of making decisions about people. You just become smarter in who you hire and how you hire them.

Jeremy: This is great. So Spencer, once we have, you know, identified what we now have, like we've identified this top person and maybe some people that we know we don't want to have and we have kind of our baseline and we begin using this in our hiring process. You know, one of the things right now that's out there is it's hard to find good people. So how are we able to be selective when we can't even find good help?

For Those Seeking a More Intimate Work Environment

Spencer: You know, that is, that's a great question. And it's a challenge in, for example, a lot of my construction clients. You know, they just, they struggle to get enough candidates and sometimes, you know, people will leave their company to go, you know, with the bigger firms. So we're talking about more small to medium-sized companies, you know, how do you compete? And I know for a fact that there are a lot of people that have been in those big firms that are looking for more personal, more real environment.

They, you know, they're sick and tired of all the red tape, they're sick and tired of, you know, of all the politics because you have everything is, you know, to make a decision has to go through, you know, five different levels of approval. And that can be really tiring and frustrating. So, you know, one advantage that a smaller firm has is just being real and really connecting with the leadership of the company. And having a sense of connection to the mission of the organization and feel like you're making a difference. So that's one advantage.

Yet, if you as a company don't have a positive and empowering culture, why does anybody want to work there? So to me, what I do is I work you know, if I'm working hypothetic say I'm working with the company, I want them to create an environment where people just love to be there. As a matter of fact, they love it so much they tell stories about it. You know, they share it with other people like oh my gosh, I love working with Jeremy. You know, I love working with Ryan.

This, of all the jobs I've ever had this is the best. You need your people telling your story. If that's not happening, it's because the leadership in that organization is not being intentional about the culture on that team. You know, you guys are talking about blue collar culture. This is, what you're doing is so amazing because it's so important for your clients to understand the impact they can have on their own future and on attracting some of the best talent out there just by how they are intentional about that culture. I don't know if I answered that very well. Does that make sense?

Jeremy: Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more with what you're saying there. I mean, to you know, we'll see that when you become very intentional about it, like you said that there's the big company, their competitor that has all these employees, and their employees are not necessarily happy being there. They're looking for something. I know, I was working with a, with one company who is really struggling to find good help. And they had some really peculiar hours and there's some challenges that were around the scheduling that they had to do. And they kept trying to work on that scheduling.

And then one day they realized that people that were working in mind actually had way worse schedules. They had to be disconnected from the families in these mines for long periods of time, but they had the skills that they needed. So they began marketing to the mines and all of a sudden their schedule was no longer such a major issue because it was better than what the people were coming from. And so, to your point, they were able to get into to create opportunity when they created clarity. I love it.

Spencer: Yeah, you know, I love your tagline here business results without foosball, flextime or free meals. It's not about ping pong tables. It's not about free massages. It's about listening to your people and respecting them and helping them have a voice. Well, then people are what, you know, we don't need 10 bosses. No, you're the leader. But as a leader in your organization, if you create an environment where you allow people to speak up and to have the same, to have some control over what they do and over their lives, it can be magical, right?

And there's still a way to create great accountability, great follow through and expect that, but do it in a way that is just so engaging. And that's the secret sauce that you've got to figure out. And it's not that hard when you understand it and are intentional about it. If you just, if you don't address it, the culture gets created at your organization accidentally, and it may not be what you intend. And that can hurt you in your recruiting efforts.

Ryan: Yeah. We talked a lot about the different types of values inside of an organization. And accidental, you know, accidental cultures, I think are everywhere. We all have a little bit of it. Some of us have more than others. You know, one of the areas that we get pushed back a lot when talking to business leaders who are challenged with finding people is they'll say, you know what, I don't pay enough or I can't afford good people, because the good people are expensive. What are your thoughts on that?

Spencer: Well, Obviously, you know, there's got to be a fair wage. But when you really look at what motivates people, it's not, money is like the fourth thing on the list. You know, people want to have some, you know, usually people say it comes down to money and it's, you know, it's not true. I mean, I know people who leave smaller firms go to the big firms and they say it's about money. Sometimes they end up coming back because they're so miserable. And so how much of your happiness and freedom are you willing to give away for a bigger paycheck?

And if you have the attitude that Listen, you know, here's what we can afford. When you talk to people, you're upfront. And, you know, I believe in sharing all the challenges. Listen, there are these challenges in working with us here but you're always going to get it straight from me. You know, when you have a leader that is willing to stop making excuses and start, you know, just start saying, Hey, here's what we can pay but here's what you get.

You're going to, you know, you're going to work directly with me or you have the opportunity to do this. Obviously, don't make promises that you can't do. Sometimes people say, Well, I'm going to put you on the management team in lieu of a raise, right? Then you create a management team that's completely uncontrollable. Have to be wise about that, too. Don't think that you don't have an advantage just because it's about money, even though somebody says it's about money, it's not always.

Jeremy: You know, Spencer, I did a workshop and I was speaking and I got on this topic of it's not about money, and actually had a guy out in the audience that raised his hand and wanted to argue right then in the workshop, it is about money. That's what they're all about. And his employee was sitting behind them and for her sake, I didn't point it out, she was shaking her head no, while he was arguing. And literally telling us that it's not all about money while he was telling us it was all about money. And several

Spencer: That's a belief system, right?

Jeremy: Yeah. And several people spoke up in the workshops or say no, I left the company, I was making money this month, and I went to this one, I have more opportunity. But it was my free time, I was able to take care of my kids, whatever that was, that was for them. But it was a company that had actually listened to them. That's how ironic that one of his employees was sitting in the room, shaking her head as he was arguing that all his employees cared about was their wages.

Spencer: You know, there is a lot of research that shows jobs that require thinking or analysis. They're not just the same job every day, right? You're not working in a factory doing the same thing. But if you have to be creative, you have to solve problems, you have to talk to customers, you have to upsell them, for example, on your services, that at some point, you can actually disincent them by paying them more.

You get them to do you do less. And I know that sounds crazy, it is proven in research after research. However, jobs like maybe you're working in a, you have a, you know, someone who works in a warehouse and all they do like a Yahoo but not Yahoo, what am I thinking, Amazon, right? They just put packages together all day long they pick things from the shelf and put it on the conveyor belt. In that case, wages do matter. So if it's a repetitive task, you actually can incentivize them by increasing that.

But if it's a job that requires thinking in and more creativity, you will actually reduce productivity by paying more. And the book, if you want to find some of that research that has it is called Drive by Daniel Pink and it's surprising. If you don't want to read a book, there's a 10-minute video, YouTube on it called Drive by Daniel Pink. You can watch that and it shows you some of the science behind that. And so, first of all, throw it out the window.

You just, Jeremy, you just told me a great example of that. But if you have that belief system as a business owner, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage because you're thinking, well, I can't get the best people. So if you can't do something, then how likely are you to actually put effort into doing it? Put that aside, because it's not a real issue. It's your belief.

Ryan: Yeah, I think one of the things that I've talked to some business leaders about is, you know, the employees will use the excuse of money because it's a lot harder, they're fairly confident the owner is not going to say, you know what, I'll pay you a raise. I'll give you more money to keep them because if that happened, then the next guy hears about it and he holds you hostage to that and all of a sudden, you start paying people like crazy. So I think they use that as an excuse, but I've got a couple of clients for people and please will actually come back a year later and go back to their original wage.

And it's not about the money. It was, other things were at play. And I love what you were talking about with Daniel Pink and motivation 3.0 because it really does come down to what drives people. And when they're aligned your cause, or your vision of the company, when they're aligned with the people you're serving, they're excited about the product, they're more easily motivated.

Rewarding Positions Create Reloading Employees

Spencer: So here's an example. You know, if if you're just doing something because you love it and there's pleasure, you know, they did all kinds of research, but one was with monkeys, for example. They would give them these puzzles to solve. And as soon as they started rewarding them, they lost interest.

They were doing it just for the fun of it for the intrinsic good of that. In some cases, people, you know, if there's a job that they love, and they, you know, they can't wait to show up because, you know, there's excitement and they get to work, they get to solve problems and feel good about what they do, money is less of an issue. And there's ways you're like, well, we just build stuff. We like, you know, we pour concrete. So if that's how you think about what you do, then there's a problem.

Ryan: Wasn't it Daniel Pink that did the studies where he gave somebody a task and as soon as he put a monetary reward to it, it took them longer to complete the task?

Spencer: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we create all kinds of disincentives we're not even aware of, right? I mean, it's crazy. I mean, if you're like I say, if you're a concrete pourer, that's not what you do. You make people's lives better by allowing them to have pride in their homes and drive in and out of them You connect them to the world. I mean, that's what you do. You have to figure out what you do, and how it makes the world a better place and get people connected to that. And then they get excited about what they do.

Jeremy: Kind of like that old story about those three bricklayers where they walked out and they asked the first guy, what are you doing? He says I'm stacking brick. Asked the second guy, he said I'm providing for my family. And the third guy said we're building the church to save the world, right? But they're all laying brick.

Spencer: That's right. It's how you look at that work that you do that matters. And so helping be really getting clear what that vision is of what you do and why you do it, that's part of the culture, right? So creating, defining that will help you in hiring the best people. Because now you're telling that story, then your people start telling you start behaving differently.

And he's like, oh, man, if we do that, if we do x, then that's not really in line with what, you know what, what we stand for. So you start doing things with much more intention, and that reinforces the environment that's going to attract the type of people that you want, that aren't just about the money, that are more about the team and about the results. And there's a type of profile that I can guarantee you is all about the money and others that are all about the team. So that comes in behavioral profiles as well.

Jeremy: You know, I was working with a guy just a couple months ago that was really facing some major decisions in his life to two different directions and making really good money, but looking to possibly exit the current business for another business. And I asked him, you know, why would we do this? Then we started, you know, having the dialogue. And he kept talking, he kept jumping over to the new opportunity. And so I said, Well, what is the opportunity? We started talking about it. And he's talking and chatting and excited. And you know, it looked pretty good. So finally, so why not stick with this one?

Like, what do you like about this job? Where do you, what's good about this one? And I asked, you know, these are all why questions and feeling questions, where do you wanted to take this business and the first thing out of his mouth, he goes, you know, my hands really hurt and he starts rubbing his hands. Because he lost the passion in that, and so he was ready to, it wasn't who he was. And he had recognized that there was something that was a lot deeper than he wanted to go fulfill. I think that's what you're talking about here.

Spencer: Yeah, I mean, this just happened to my son in law. You know, he, I like to say this because he just gave his notice, but he's been working for, this guy is really smart, much smarter than me. He graduated two degrees from Harvard and top of his class with an MBA there. So he's, you know, he's been a consultant for a company called Bain, right? You know, Mitt Romney's old company, they're like a McKinsey, there's these guys.

You know, when they work with a client, they charge him like, quarter-million dollars a month. That's the kind of company he's consulting, so he's a smart kid. But here's what's important to him. He's got four beautiful kids, four of my grandchildren, and his wife that he absolutely loves and they've been married, you know, 11 years now. He's been working 80 hours a week for most of his life, and he's missing so much. And he's like, I'm done. And he was working at, you know, waiting to start a business with a partner.

And in June, he just couldn't wait any longer. He says, I'm so done with this corporate crap, and having them own me. And he just gave them notice. Doesn't even know what he's doing and what he wants to do. He's probably going to look for, you know, small business to get involved in. So there's another example of someone who'd rather work for a small company for way less, have time, for things that are important to them than to just be making a huge paycheck. There's so much more to life than that.

Jeremy: So Spencer, kind of taking us down to the technician level, and really understanding, you know, at that level, they're human. Some of these profiles and some of these scans that you've talked about. Help us to understand how that, how we can understand if this person is really going to be happy working for us or not. How would we go about doing that?

Spencer: So that's a great question. So if the job of the technician requires them to, for example, go out and network or, you know, knock on doors for potential clients, and they have, for example, extraversion that's low. In other words, they, it's hard for them to talk to strangers, that's going to create a lot of stress for that individual.

And so one of the things you want to think about is does the person you're hiring, does their natural behavior fit well with what the job requirements are? And, you know, sometimes people just get in a job because, you know, that's the technician job just because, you know, it's a paycheck and but they're not really happy and it takes them a lot of energy. So they come to work late or, you know, they're not as invested, they're less reliable.

But if they have a job that actually utilizes their strengths, it can be energizing. And they can be, you know, they can be excited. So you, once you know what those are before you hire, then It's never a guarantee of success. But it will absolutely increase your odds of hiring the right person, making sure that they're in a place that they're going to be happy and feel good about what they're doing.

Ryan: So we've talked a lot about the matching behaviors to the role that they're in and making sure that they're going to be set up for success. These assessments, they do take a little bit of time. Typically, there's an investment involved. So if somebody is not ready to take the jump into doing these assessments, is there any practical tips you could give them to get started just so they can start seeing the benefit of being able to align behaviors to a role?

Spencer: You know, good question. So the surveys that we're talking about are fairly cost-effective. 35 bucks for a survey is, you know what, to $100. You know, you're talking, you know, a range there for just the survey, but if you have somebody that really helps you, you know, teaches you what to do than, you know, you might pay a little bit more for that than that. So, the cost itself is so worth it.

But if you don't have that, learn about, come up with a set of behavior-based questions that you are consistent about with every hire. So here's a hiring practice that I would recommend if you're not using that survey. Agree upon questions that you feel like are absolutely necessary to know. Not, for example, are you a hard worker. Oh, yeah, I'm a hard.

Anybody that's gonna want a job is going to tell you what you want to hear. But ask them, you know, tell me about a situation where you had to deal with, you know, a boss that was, you know, that didn't, you know, didn't take your ideas or didn't listen to your feedback. How would you handle that? Yes, I, you know, whatever it is that you are concerned about, ask them to give you an answer of the scenario that you're concerned about. Write those questions down. Maybe you have five or 10 questions.

And have more than one person be doing the interviewing, right? So don't just make it you, the boss, have somebody that's different than you. Maybe if you have a small company, make it your spouse, right? But somebody that has a different perspective than you that will ask some questions. So let's say you have 10 questions. Maybe you have three people that will have the opportunity to ask questions. You all share, and one person does for the other two to three each.

But you ask the same questions every time. And the reason is, is that you want to objectively compare how you rate their answers with all your candidates. That costs you nothing other than just planning on how you're going wanting to do it. The other thing is, is if you don't want to pay for a profile, get really good at identifying certain behavioral tendencies. That's going to take an investment of time and energy anyway. Or hire someone to, you know, to teach you.

Ryan: One of the things that I get pushed back on when I'm working with clients is how much time we spend with a job seeker or candidate, especially for the frontline positions. Their hourly turnover is typically pretty high, there's a larger candidate pool. So the belief is, well, all I need to do is short for the interview. I asked them a couple of questions, if they can do the job. I spend 15 minutes with them, and then I make a decision. What would you say to people that have that process where the interviews are 15 minutes, they ask a couple of skills-based questions and then move on?

A Different Approach to Hiring

Spencer: Yeah, you know, that's common. I mean, I have a client that is, does security monitoring, right? So they hired college kids for, you know, $11 an hour, $13 an hour. And, you know, all they do, they work part-time, some of them work full time, you know, they're, they're going to school. But they just, they take inbound calls for fire alarms or burglar alarms and they, you know, but it's pretty technical because they have to, you know, understand the signals and figure out what's going on.

And they don't have a lot of time either. So what they will do is sometimes they do group interviews. And, you know, Zappos has a great strategy that you can do and they, you know, they bring in all these interviewees and they pick them up at the airport. Not saying you're going to do this, but you can apply the principle. And they pick them up from the airport and the guy or the girl who's driving the bus is HR and just observes them, you know?

So maybe you have a group of people you bring them in for a group interview or just an information meeting. You watch them, how do they show up, how interested are they, you know? And just, you get some time to look at them. And you can do that in big groups. And you can save a lot of money just by looking at how people show up and how they interact and how interested they are and did they show because they had to so they can get their unemployment check?

Ryan: I love creating processes inside of the interview process that allows us to evaluate behaviors in action. I have a Pinterest board. Every time I find a new infographic that says here are how to answer the five hardest interview questions and what answers employers are looking for. Every time I find one of those, I save it to my Pinterest board, and I've got thousands of infographics that tell you how to pass an interview.

Spencer: They're going to tell you what they think you want to hear. So put him in a position where, you know, that's what you want to do is, you know, just watch how they behave. How do they treat people? Do they show up on time? Were they early?

Ryan: Yeah. And not that everybody can do this but I've heard that Amazon, for their warehouses, they don't even interview people anymore. If you apply, you get hired. And then you go to two weeks of orientation. And the orientation is the interview. Like they're interviewing candidates, they're finding out who's going to fit, they're weeding people out during that two-week orientation process. They're giving them a feel for what it's like to work there. And everything else at the end of the two weeks, there's not going to be any loss of productivity if the people don't continue. So it's a very effective process for them.

Spencer: Brilliant, and that's very similar to what Zappos does. And that's like after 90 days, they give you 1800 dollars to leave. And if you take it, then you're the wrong person.

Jeremy: You know, I was doing the group, I love the group interview thing for a company that's really a team environment or there's some form of collaboration that you're expecting. We were doing team interviews at a steel company that I was running. And you'd be surprised that how many of the people there would, as you'd ask a question that put other people down, they would they get knocked off of their normal routine.

They don't have those five answers from the Pinterest board now. So you'd ask them a situational question and they look at people funny. I remember one guy, he would answer and he talked forever. And as soon as he was done he'd pull up his phone, and he wouldn't listen to what anybody else had to say, is totally disconnected. And you get to see all those behaviors before you are paying for it.

Spencer: That's right. I remember in college years ago, I applied to work at United Parcel Service. Great job, which is like a paid workout. I mean, it was a sweatbox. I mean, it's just, you just move boxes, and they pay a pretty good wage. I mean, not a bad gig. I worked at night, went to school during the day. It was really hard to get a job there. But I remember they came to the campus of my college, and there was, they did the interviews in a stairwell. And there was, you know, there was probably 50 people all waiting in line to end the interviews were five minutes in length.

You know, there you have certain things, you know, they shake your hand, they look in the eye, and they tell me why you're interested in working at UPS. And I don't remember all the questions they asked, but one of the things I want to know is, what do they know about my company? What have they just, did they fill out an application or are they so, I, listen, I'm in such demand, I don't need to. They need me, I don't need them. Do they care enough and look up your company and learn a little bit about you? I want to know if they did that. So what do you know about us?

Ryan: Yeah, I almost sometimes wish that there were, there was some sort of training for job seekers. Just to let them know, you know, if you care a little bit, it'd be nice. But as employers, we have to figure out how to weed those people out that don't really want to be there and they're just looking for a job. With our clients, we always ask one question on the application is, why do you want to work for us?

And I cannot tell you how many times we've got, because I need the extra money, because I need a job, because I'm scanning for something, I'm like, You're out. So as we wrap up here, I have one last question for you, Spencer. For the blue collar entrepreneurs and the business leaders that are listening right now, what is the number one piece of advice you want them to have when it comes to either building or creating effective teams through good hiring?

Spencer: I don't know if this is the answer but I feel like, you know, the best advice I could give to a business leader. And this may sound crazy to your audience, but I need you to hear me out. And that develops empathy. And people are gonna say empathy? That stupid soft skill. We need tough guys, right? It is one of the toughest skills that you can ever have and develop and I'll tell you that it is what allows the, you know, the fighter pilot to shoot down their enemy and be victorious.

Why? Because if you care enough to understand your enemy, that means you respect them. Think about your competition. How do you position yourself against them? You understand them. You don't have the arrogance that you're the best and the smartest, you know it all. It's not just about understanding and putting yourself in someone else's shoes, it's truly about being aware of how to respond in the right situation. So for example, how do you respond in an interview? Do you have empathy?

Empathy is actually a life and death skill that we were born with. It's what allows you to respond to the police officer that pulls you over appropriately. It's what allows you to sit in front of the judge and respond the right way, right? It's what allows you to respond to your spouse appropriately when they say something like I love you or I'm frustrated with you to have the right response. It's what allows you to respond appropriately when somebody wants to kill you. It's the situational awareness that whatever situation you're in, you're able to respond appropriately.

And I don't think people really look at empathy that way. And I think if you have it, you can understand who you're interviewing, you can understand how you're showing up. And you can, it's a hard skill. And it's really going to allow you to relate to others, understand your competition, is going to understand just how people are going to make an impact on your team and how you can be a better leader. So to me, I hope that wasn't too weird, but I tell you what

Ryan: I think that's a great answer. And, you know, one of the really easy tools that we give to people that are interviewing from the employer's perspective is remember, you're not just hiring an individual. There's a family behind that individual. There's a spouse, there's children, there's a whole set of situations that, as an employer, we are taking on if we hire that person, and the sooner we can realize that we're not just hiring an extra set of hands, but a human being that has a life story behind them, the more effective we can be at engaging them.

Spencer: That requires empathy.

Ryan: Absolutely. Hey Spencer, I really enjoyed, I can't believe we're done. And that's always a great sign. I really enjoyed it today. How do our listeners get ahold of you If they want to learn more about how you can help them build effective teams?

Spencer: Yeah, so my website is Altium ALTIUM Leadership.com. Altiumleadership.com. And you can, you know, you have, get a free assessment. Talk to me about it. Call me at 702-807-4698

Ryan: Awesome. Thanks again, Spencer. I really enjoyed your knowledge, your wisdom, your insight, the practical advice that you gave our listeners. Thanks again. And I look forward to talking to you again soon.

Spencer: Thank you, Ryan. Thank you, Jeremy. It was great to be with you.

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