business owners

Get Your Employees To Care As Much As You Do With Dane Sanders

Ryan Englin · August 9, 2022 ·

We all know that not every job will be our dream job. But that doesn’t mean we can’t find ways to love our current jobs. But how can leaders help employees love theirs? That is what Dane Sanders, Co-Founder and CEO of Tell Me Your Dreams, speaks about today. Dane helps business owners build cultures their teams love. At Tell Me Your Dreams, Dane interrupts the burnout cycle by helping employees achieve their dreams and promoting self-discovery, personal responsibility, and meaning at work. In this episode, Dane talks about how leaders can become strong and awake and get employees to care as much as they do.

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Get Your Employees To Care As Much As You Do With Dane Sanders

I am super excited about our guest. In fact, I already know we are in for a real treat. He’s the CEO of Tell Me Your Dreams, and he focuses on working with companies and leaders to make sure that the employees are engaged and that they love their job. He has what he calls a culture design firm. Seth Godin called his writing a precious gift, and he even serves on Donald Miller’s StoryBrand facilitator team.

If you’ve heard us talk about StoryBrand before, it’s come up a few times. A great process for helping you communicate your message to the right people. Dane and I have something in common. We both love pouring into people and helping people become engaged. Dane has taught leadership and character development at Westmont College. He’s led development efforts for Academic Centers at Biola University. He goes on and on. The resume for this guy is incredible but do you know what? I want to jump right into the episode and hear from Dane how he got to where he’s at. I want everyone to welcome to the show, Dane Sanders, CEO of Tell Me Your Dreams.

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Dane, welcome to the show.

Thanks, Ryan. Great to be here.

I am so excited about this. We’ve met a couple of times. We’ve chatted a couple of times. Our conversations need to get in front of our readers because I feel like I learned so much in spending a few minutes with you. I know this is going to be an amazing episode.

The feeling is mutual. My sense is that if we could somehow wonder twin powers activate and form something powerful, we would do some damage, so let’s get into it.

I asked the same question to everybody on the show because, for many business owners, there are a lot of things that we start to believe that aren’t true. Rules that we create for ourselves. Rules that others have created for us. In the work that you do, what do you think is the biggest myth?

It's normal for people to wake up and see themselves as heroes of their own stories. Click To Tweet

When I think about the human condition and out of the box of how people are wired, it’s normal for people to wake up and see themselves as the hero of their own stories. We all wake up and go, “What’s going on for me?” It’s natural. When those people who wake up and like that, and they go and they lead their organizations, they are tempted to think that because they are passionate about their work, their people should be as passionate as they are.

It’s not a conscious belief. Sometimes people expect it because they are paying them a lot of money but there’s the sense of like, “I am so excited about what I’m doing. Why are these people not as excited?” the reason is that those people woke up that morning and thought they were the hero of the story. Now we have two heroes in the story. That’s a problem. It’s not a very interesting story narrative, and we are competing.

When people can figure out some alternative roles in the story, the story gets way more interesting. What’s unique about the business owner, the leader, is the leader has a role available to them that their employees don’t have. When they can tap into that, when they can decide to be the guide in the relationship, everything changes.

There’s some Donald Miller stuff in there. I heard that. It’s interesting. I hear a lot of people tell me, “I can’t get my people to care.” I’m sure you’ve got some ways to help solve that and get them excited. The easiest thing to forget is that we hire people. They’ve got hopes, goals, dreams, frustrations, problems, and drama. They’ve got all of it they’re dealing with. If you forget that they’ve got a personal life to go home to that may not be perfect, and you don’t care about that stuff, how can you ever expect them to care about your business?

I’m glad you mentioned Don. He is a good friend, and we’ve done a lot of work together over the years. His contribution to my own take on life is amazing. Let me back up. I will give you a quick snapshot of what got me to now. When I was an undergrad in college, I studied Marketing. At the end of my Marketing degree, I felt like I had learned how to manipulate people to buy things they didn’t want or need.

BCC 79 | Employees — Employees: The leader has a role that their employees don’t have. When they can tap into that and decide to be the guide in the relationship, everything changes.

I thought, “That’s gross. I don’t like that now. What am I going to do?” I went to grad school and studied philosophy. I study philosophy and virtue ethics. How do you be a good person? Can you have a good life? Is that even possible? I was running away from marketing. That’s what I was doing. If you know anybody who’s graduated from grad school of philosophy, you know they are unemployed or their teachers.

I decided to become a teacher. I was lucky enough to do that. I’m teaching leadership and character development at this Liberal Arts college up in Santa Barbara, California. I read this book by Donald Miller called Blue Like Jazz. This is a million years ago. This is a New York Times Bestselling memoir. It was incredible. I made a movie about it. Don wrote a little chapter about this guy named Greg Spencer. Greg was a colleague of mine at Westmont. I basically worked my magic to try to get Don to come to campus to talk to my students. That’s how I met Don years ago.

Since then, Don has introduced me to the profound nature of the story. His story is so deeply built into our guts, into our DNA. It’s the human language. It’s how we make sense of the world. That can be for good, and it can be for not. Those ideas, I’m thinking, “What story are you living into? What story are your people living into?” They are in a story. If you can help them upgrade their stories, everything transforms.

Even me with my marketing thing. The other guy that I met around that time was a guy named Seth Godin, who you and I both know. Seth, first professionally and more personally, enrolled me in the idea that you could do marketing different. I’m a fan of marketing. I love marketing now. It’s amazing but it wouldn’t have happened if someone didn’t choose volitionally to be a guide in my life to invite me into a bigger story than I was living.

I was looking for hacks and shortcuts to everything. Seth came along and said, “Slow this train down. You can get where you want to go way faster, doing things 1 day at a time, 1 foot in front of the other but do the right things and the right way at the right timing for the right reason. You will see something change in your people.” Like Seth did in me. What we are talking about is how we upgrade people’s lives because of the position we hold as leaders but we do it in a way that is going to serve you and your company. That’s not the first benefactor. The first benefactor of the humans was called to steward and lead well in these seasons.

Leading is not having a transactional relationship with your people but a human relationship with them. Click To Tweet

There’s so much to unpack and your story of how you got to where you are at. I love how you started with the marketing route, which at the end of the day, this is what I believe. Everything we do is marketing. One of the big shifts in the way we recruit is we help people understand that recruiting is a marketing activity. They forget that. They think, “I write a job ad. I give it to HR, and they take care of it.” It’s very sterile and cold. It’s okay if we hurt people we don’t know.

That’s the way it is. It’s not that that’s the right way to do it or there’s a law that says, “That’s how it has to be done.” It’s the way it has been done because most people don’t like to recruit. They don’t like to grow their companies on the people’s side. They do it because they have other goals in mind. You had so much in there but what do you think is holding people back? It sounds like you had a lot to learn. You went on your own journey. I’m sure a lot of our readers are like, “I don’t have many years to figure it all out.” What’s holding them back and keeping them from getting their people engaged and having these conversations with their people?

First is what you said. It’s not having a transactional relationship with your people but a human relationship with your people. If you look at them as human beings like you described with real life, real challenges, the universal is everybody struggles and suffers. If you think about like, “Why do people quit their job?” Nobody quits their job because they didn’t like the company. They quit their job because they didn’t like their supervisor. They didn’t like the person they were working with. If you can be where you treat them like human beings, it’s amazing how much they will respond.

Leading with, “I wonder what these people are up against?” Getting curious about their real lives. Having a coffee. Let’s say you have 50 employees. Have one coffee a week for a year, and everyone will feel like a million bucks because the boss cared enough to say, “What are you doing?” The company we run is called Tell Me Your Dreams. The reason we call it that, it’s a horrible name for a company probably, is because what we do is we say, “If you are going to do one thing, even if you don’t hire us, sit with your people and say, ‘Tell me your dreams. What do you want in life? What do you want?’”

The reason we talk about dreams and not about, “What do you want” directly is because they will say, “I want a raise.” Let’s get the big picture here. If you had the raise, things going your way, if you could wave a magic wand in your life, what would happen? What is your dream?” People can internalize the woman or man who’s leading this place cares enough about little of me, my dreams, and that they think about me more than how I can serve them; everything transforms. A motivation arrives. The way we say it is if you invite dreams, you discover drive, and a whole new world opens up in terms of people’s outlook at work.

I can see a bumper sticker that says, “Invite dreams. Discovered drives.” A little plaque when you walk into the office or something.

It’s true. Again, it’s human. Everyone wants to get after it with their lives. If someone is working in a job that they didn’t have when they were kids. They want to be a fireman, a cop, an astronaut or be whatever, then they grow up. Let’s say they are in a role, a job, or even an industry that they never would’ve thought about. It happens all the time. That’s most of the world.

If you don’t invite meaning into those roles, this is how you do it. You talk about their aspirations. You talk about what they care about, at least as much as you want them to be thinking about your company’s mission statement. Care about their dream statement, what they want, and things open up. It’s natural. It’s human. It doesn’t require heavy lifting. There’s no brain damage required except you got to care. You got to care about these people. Care like give a rip. If that’s all that shifted for most people like you said, “I’m going to choose to care for one employee a day differently than they are expecting,” a whole new world will open up.

I agree with everything you said but I know there are people reading this now going, “Dane, I’ve sat down and talked to my people about what they want out of life, and they give me a, ‘Oh,’ answer or they give me something that doesn’t feel like a thought through. My people don’t care.” I can see people reading this and thinking, “They don’t care that I would care about their dreams.” Help me overcome that objection.

First of all, if that happens, you are in good luck because what that means is it’s not that your people don’t care. Your people have never been asked the question. This is their first rep in answering what they should do. In fact, most people, if you ask them what their dreams are, they are like, “Lose weight.” They don’t know. They are dream deprived. They have been in survival mode their whole lives. It’s going to take a couple of reps for them to figure out what they want. If you can be the one that helped them figure it out. Now, you are like Yoda. You are the person that opened up a vision for their future. What if they don’t have an answer? Assume that they do. They just don’t know it yet.

If you invite dreams, you discover drive. Click To Tweet

They are going to credit you as a person who helped them figure it out. You get curious about them. This is what I do with my kids all the time. I will say, “What’s the answer to some question?” The answer that every teenager says is, “I don’t know.” I say, “If you did know, what would you know?” They always have an answer. That’s the first line of defense. Do you care when you ask this question? If you can get through that line of defense, now you are entering into the space of real connection with your people. Don’t get thrown off by that easy distraction. It’s an invitation to go deeper and take your time. There’s no rush in these conversations.

That’s something I’ve learned as I’ve grown up professionally. As a child, I had lots of big dreams. I wanted to be an astronaut, wanted to do this, wanted to do that, and somewhere along the line, that was probably a school guidance counselor that said, “Stop it. You need to get a job. You got bills to pay. Be realistic.” I look back now and don’t know who it was that would have done that but I promise you. There were people that said, “No, dreaming big doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t put food on the table. It doesn’t do these things.” I think part of it too might be that people were told to stop dreaming.

There’s no doubt. It’s a tragedy. Bless the guidance counselors’ hearts. They were trying to help. They are not evil people but they were answering a different question. The question about dreaming isn’t real. Like if I’m dreaming about being an astronaut, I’m not thinking about how I’m going to eat dinner tonight. Those are two different conversations. One is a 20 or 30-year conversation, and one is a 20 or 30-minute conversation. I got to get the right wavelength for the conversation I’m in.

It wouldn’t have been great if your guidance counselor had said, “Here’s the deal. There are two things you need to care about in life. One is today, and one is tomorrow. Tomorrow is the dream question. Today is, ‘How are you going to get that girl to go out with you on Friday night or what job do you want in life? How are you going to take your next step?’” If all we do is serve the short-term and we never get to the long-term to our future self, we are robbing ourselves.

We wake up 20 or 30 years later and go, “How did I get here? I dreamt of something bigger, and I forgot.” Some people, when they are reading this, are remembering. That’s amazing because there’s still so much time. It’s not too late. Even if you are the leader and you park your dreams back in twelfth grade. Get back to it because there’s gold in those hills. What’s tragic is people blow it off. They have time left but they don’t take advantage of that time. It’s amazing how quickly things can turn once you get clear and committed.

That was incredibly impactful for me personally. I’m sure there are people reading having the same thing going, “If I don’t dream, it’s probably tough for me to help others figure out their dreams.” That’s what I heard you say. I know you didn’t say that but like, “Wow.” At some point, maybe I’m not dreaming big enough, so it’s hard for me to lead others toward their dreams.

This happens all the time. We will come and work with organizations, and the organizational leader is excited to bring us in to help work with their employees. They want to help their employees love their job. If they love their job, they are going to stick around longer. They are going to engage more. You are going to become famous, become a talent magnet for other people to come work there. All those things are great but somewhere along the line, the leader, if they are tuning in and usually what happens is they will be there for the intro.

Let’s say I’m giving a series of talks or something. They will come for the first one to introduce me. They are getting credit for bringing this in. It’s awesome. Good for him or her. Ten minutes in, they are still in the room. “They got a meeting but will get to it in a second,” and that’s good news. That means they are not there now because they are serving their people. They are there for themselves, which is good news. It’s an invitation for people to treat themselves like humans too while they are taking responsibility for the leadership roles they hold.

I feel like there’s so much information you shared. I feel like we have already been on the show for an hour. It’s all many thoughts, so many directions. I love this because what I heard you say was if we want to get our people dreaming, get them engaged, and care about the business, we have to do the same thing ourselves as leaders. Whether that means that we need to have a mentor that’s saying, “What are your dreams?” we need to learn how to hold ourselves accountable to make that happen, which I’m sure you know. I’ve heard many times that the hardest person to hold accountable is yourself. There’s so much opportunity.

This is an unpopular belief. I don’t think we can even hold each other accountable. What we need is more of a sense of space to account. Let me explain what I mean. Accounting for me, and this happens all the time. You and I, off the air, are talking about this fun project I run called Men and Women Of Discomfort. We get together and do wacky things for 90 days. People work out six days a week, and they intermittent fast.

What's tragic is people have time left but don't take advantage of that time. Click To Tweet

They basically do everything we tell them. They make one choice to opt out of their choices, and we choose everything for them for 90 days, when to eat, when to sleep, what to eat, what to drink, when to get in cold water, cold showers, to hold their breath, when to do anonymous good deeds for others and to meditate. We do all these fun things. It’s super fun.

Our tagline is, “It’s probably not for you.” It’s for a reason because it’s the thing where people say they are so happy they’ve done these things but it’s very difficult to volitionally say, “I’m going to put myself on the hook like this.” Those who do have this radical transformation. It’s super cool. Inevitably, people come in, especially at the beginning and they say, “I’m so excited. You guys are going to keep me accountable.”

I’m like, “We got to stop this cancer right out of the gate. No one is going to hold you accountable because, do you know what? If we are the ones holding you accountable, who’s responsible? If you fail in this program, who’s responsible? Are you going to make me responsible? We are not responsible. You are responsible. Do you know what else? If you succeed in this program, it’s not because we did anything. It’s because you did something. You showed up for you and your life.” This is where it is the hardest thing to take into account for ourselves.

It’s the only thing that makes the difference. If I don’t have someone in my life that I’m willing to say out loud, “I said I was going to do this and broke my commitment or I said I was going to do this and made it. I’m accounting.” That’s the way where people start living more authentically. They are more real and showing up differently in their lives. As a result, they get the benefits. They look like superheroes, their capacity to do things because they can do hard things. When everyone else around them, they crumble when it gets difficult. We don’t need that in leaders now. We need leaders who can stand up when we need them to.

If there’s one thing that I’ve learned in the last decade or so, being an entrepreneur. Number one is that we are capable of much more than we give ourselves credit for. I’m not talking about, “I can go make more money or get a better job.” It’s amazing what the human being, the human body, can do when the rules are gone. We talked a little bit about that in the beginning. We talked a little bit unfair too. All these rules we apply for ourselves, “We can’t say that. We can’t do that.” We have all these rules that society has “created for us” that we believe to be true. Those rules are the number one thing that holds many of us back.

Even what you spoke about earlier with the guidance counselor could be a rule. It almost may be an agreement. The metaphorical guidance counselor, whoever he or she is, said that to you. You could make an agreement with like, “That’s the limit.” I remember when I was a kid. I was working on something, and my legal name was Dana. My mom would say, “Dana, you are not very mechanical.”

I made an agreement with my mom that I didn’t know how to put things together until I turned 25 or 30 and went, “What if that wasn’t true? What if there was more available?” I started making crap, and it started working. All of a sudden, I could tell myself a new story. This is what I mean when I say tell yourself bigger stories. It’s interrupting those agreements, those rules, and limiting beliefs in our lives so that we can get after things that we thought were impossible but they weren’t tried yet with any effort. You might fail but if you don’t run that risk, if everything is a sure thing, talk about a boring existence. We are not going anywhere new. We are stuck in a rut.

We started with the stories that others were telling. The stories that we are creating, but now, we are talking about the stories we tell ourselves. A lot of story going on here, and I agree with you. If we go back to before there was writing, how did human beings communicate? Through story. It’s the oldest way of communicating with people, and it still is relevant now. That’s why marketing is so popular now. Everybody’s got a story to tell, and we got to figure out how to tell the right story to the right people at the right time.

It’s so empowering when you hear a story that calls us up to life. There are conversations. I’m in a lot of times where people are getting called out. I don’t think we need quite as many call-outs. What we need are call-ups. There are invitations to occupy the space in our lives in a fuller way. I know there are readers who are reading these words. There’s something tingling in their guts about, “What if me? What if I took a bigger risk on me? What if I was willing to put myself on the hook to get after that?” It could be an old practice you had or you’ve got a little out of shape. You haven’t gone on a date with your wife in a while.

If you decided, “This is as good as it gets, so let’s ride this one home.” What if there was more? In particular categories, the ones that you are scared to go to. Even as I’m saying this word, some of you who are reading are sweating a little. If that’s you, that’s what I’m talking to you because if you are not sweating just a little and a little bit uncomfortable, you are probably missing out on a lot of gold.

I don't think we can even hold each other accountable. What we need is more of a sense of space to account. Click To Tweet

The brave ones, the courageous ones who are noticing that and go, “I want to barf but I’m going to go forward anyways. I’m going to take a risk. I’m going to make that call. I’m going to set that appointment. I’m going to call Ryan. Let’s finally pull the trigger.” If that’s you, you have a little window of time to take action. If you don’t do it soon, the window will close, and you know it. If you have any vision about what I’m saying, your opportunity is to do it now.

We go back to those analogies. We talk about these analogies and metaphors to help people understand where we are going. I think about the concept of growing pains. I’ve got little kids at home. My legs hurt because they are growing. Growth doesn’t always have to be bending over painful but it does hurt a little bit at times.

When you have a strong workout or you go on a big long hike, and your muscles are sore. It’s because they are growing. Not that it has to be that painful but a lot of times, we know that there is pain associated with growth, and because of that, that fear kicks in of, “What if?” We start telling ourselves all these stories that aren’t true. As we wrap up the show, Dane, I want to think about those people that are on the fence that are thinking, “I know what I need to do but I’m scared to do it because it might hurt a little bit.” What do we tell them?

Let me offer three things. Not just for the individual but also for the people that they are leading. The first thing to go full circle to our conversation, it might hurt a little bit to ask a junior entry-level employee for coffee and them say no. It might be a little awkward. It might feel like you are not quite as relevant as they think they are or whatever it is.

If you sit beside systematically to have leadership coffees where you know your role is to be the guide, virtual or otherwise, with every team member in this next season and ask them, “What are your dreams?” that’s going to be uncomfortable but I promise you that you will gain fruit. That’s the first thing I would say for the others that you are serving. Second, I understand that it might feel vulnerable but you want to get to a place where you are being honest with your own dreams too.

Where even though you have a lot on your shoulders, you are carrying a lot of weight with the organization or families you are leading to find space for you to stop to retreat. Maybe it’s one day a week, a Sunday. In the old days, it was called a Sabbath. Take a break, stop, think, and breathe. Have an app first, maybe. Go for a walk.

Talk to a buddy about your own dream conversation but not with those you are leading but with somebody that’s your peer or someone who’s a guide to you, and get real in those conversations. If you do that, both in directions, both in who you are leading, calling up, and calling yourself up where you are going to do is, you are going to find some freedom, some new vision for where you want to go. Some people need that.

The third thing I say is as you begin to identify for the people that you are leading and for yourself what your dreams might be. Can you get back to now and say, “Is there one single next step that I can make?” Don’t make a conceptual. Don’t make it in their head. Like when your employee says their dream is to get out of student debt or their dream is to buy their first house or whatever. Get them to make a single first step but that’s not true for them. It’s true for you, too.

What’s the single next step that you need to make? If it’s not the thing that you came up with, what is it? If it’s not like you, who’s going to do it, who will? If it’s not now, when? The time is now. Life is too short. One of my best friends, earlier this year, January 1st, 2022, he’s the guy that I started this Men and Women Of Discomfort with. His name is Tim Krueger, a 42 years old, Ironman, stud, and athlete. The best blue-collar curmudgeon you could ever imagine. The guy you want to hang out with.

He finished a year of suffering with stomach cancer, and he died. Two young boys, his wife, Jess, his birthday is coming up on August 14th. I miss the guy so much but I will tell you this about Timmy Krueger. That boy lived. He understood what was at stake. He was more alive in his last year of life than he was in the previous 41. You want to be like Tim Krueger. None of us are guaranteed another day, another breath, and if we are not taking advantage of the things that are in front of us now, we are fools. Wouldn’t it be nice if the stakes were too high? That’s my encouragement. Care about your people. Care about yourself. Do one right next thing and do it quickly because we are all on the clock.

It might feel vulnerable, but you need to get to a place where you are honest with your dreams. Click To Tweet

I don’t know where to go from there, Dane. That was amazing. I have to say, it’s probably one of my favorite interviews. It’s incredible. It got me thinking about a lot of things, too. I know there are people going, “Dane sounds like he knows his stuff. He’s probably got other nuggets out there, other tips, other ways I can learn or even connect with you.” How do people do that?

First of all, thank you for saying that and encouraging me, and thanks for leading, Ryan. What you were doing in this space is so profound. It’s one of the reasons I was so excited to be in this conversation with you. You are the real deal. The way you are leading, I know there are people at home nodding their heads now as they are reading like, “Ryan delivers over and over again.” Thank you for leading.

To answer your question. I created a website. Forgive the name. It’s a silly name but it’s called AskDane.com. It’s pretty simple. It’s basically a video walkie-talkie. You go there, press a button and say, “I’m Sally. I’m Fred. Whatever.” If you want to process or talk, it’s all private. It’s a one-to-one conversation. It’s asynchronous, so no meetings are required for you or me. It allows me to have a lot of conversations with a lot of people. If any of your readers would love to debrief, chat or ask a question about Tell Me Your Dreams or Men and Women of Discomfort or any of the things we chatted about. That’s probably the easiest place to go do it.

My last question is usually, do you have any offer or giveaway for our readers but you answered them both at the same time? That’s an amazing offer to be able to get some time to share with you, what they are going through, and what’s going on with them because of a quick little video chat. You can get them unstuck and help them take that next right step. Maybe even they can learn a little bit more about the work you do at Tell Me Your Dreams or even the Men and Women of Discomfort, both of those sounds like amazing things. Not only for our readers but probably for a lot of their employees as well, to help them with their dreams.

Thanks, Ryan. Thanks again for having me on.

Thanks for being here. I enjoyed it.

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Control Your Mindset And Control Your Cash With Rachel Marshall And Bruce Wehner

Ryan Englin · March 23, 2022 ·

Sustainable business growth takes time and a lot of effort. You have to focus on the key concepts that are critical to your organization. How do you know what strategies you need to formulate and what areas to develop? In this episode, Rachel Marshall and Bruce Wehner, the founders of The Money Advantage, share the importance of solving the right problems through developing the mindset to achieve great things. Most business owners are looking at short-term goals, but you have to look at long-term plans to increase revenue. Tune in to know how to take control and build your wealth!

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Control Your Mindset And Control Your Cash With Rachel Marshall And Bruce Wehner

I am with the Founders of The Money Advantage. They have great stories on why they do what they do and why they got into this. We forget that our businesses need to be managed for so many business owners, especially financially. There are different philosophies and experts talking about, “Do this. Invest here and that.” our guest and I believe what it comes down to is that there is a mindset around this, whether that is escaping the scarcity mindset and that money is something that’s hard to come by. Whether it’s moving to an abundance mindset and understanding that money is something that can go to work for you for your business and for your family. They have got great stories. I will ask them to share a little bit about why they do what they do, but I want to welcome Rachel Marshall and Bruce Wehner to the show. Thank you for being here.

Thank you for having us.

I am looking forward to this.

Why does each of you do what you do? I know you want to help business owners with generational wealth and those kinds of things.

I came from a situation of poverty and scarcity mindset growing up. Obviously, it’s the oldest one on this show. It took me a long time to overcome that. Now I have a great life and I’m trying to shorten that period of people overcoming that scarcity mindset and realizing that we all understand what we understand from where we live and the information we are getting. We’re making decisions based on the information we have at the time that we are making those decisions, so you should not beat yourself up. Mine is to shorten people’s time of understanding that there’s a bigger world out there.

You start living in abundance. How about you, Rachel?

I went into business because I wanted financial freedom for my own family. I learned so much along the way. I had no idea entrepreneurship was going to be the best personal growth mechanism in the entire world. Where I stand now, I want my kids to be very wealthy. I want them to have access to things that I did not have growing up. I want them to be able to choose how to spend their time, contribute fully and be the most that they can be. In order to do that, I need to be the model, be the example for them, and see what’s possible because of what I create.

What is one of the biggest myths about your industry? I shared a little bit of stuff around mindset, but what do you believe is one of the biggest myths out there surrounding this idea of financial planning or financial advisement for your business?

True wealth is about making sure you are at your best in every area of your life. Click To Tweet

There are so many myths around money. The first that comes to mind is that wealth is all about money. We think it’s the dollars, the dollar in the bank account or retirement account. True wealth is about human flourishing and making sure that you are at your best in every area of your life. Money is a small part of that. That would probably be one of the first myths. I know you have one that you talk about all the time as well, about where we invest our capital. Can you talk about that one?

If you are reading and it sounds like you are going to be a business owner, what I see in the financial planning industry is, first of all, you are in your business all the time. You are in the grind and so on and so forth. You could probably use some business consulting and some business coaching to make sure it’s not a grind for you, but unfortunately, especially in my generation, we have been taught that it’s not valuable unless you grind it out and you are working hard. That’s probably the one myth. The other myth is you are going to want to retire one day, so when you meet with a financial planner and that financial planner says, “The best way to get you retired is to put a lot of money into a Tuft’s Preferred Plan.”

I say to that, “Let’s do a little thought experiment here.” If you had $50,000 to put into a Self IRA for your business, what would the rate of return you would like to have on that money? That’s up to you, whatever you want to say. Typically, people say, “I’m hoping in the long run, I would get 7% to 10%.” I say to the person, “What if you took that $50,000, it magically appeared and you put it into your business? What kind of rate of return would you expect in your business?” Inevitably, business owners say, “If somebody gave me $50,000, I know I could turn that around a 20% or 25% rate of return in my business. I try to just be quiet.

Let the little men in their heads say, “That does not make any sense.” What happens is that even further here, they don’t realize they are pulling valuation out of their business, too. If they can grow their business, if you do want to retire down the road, your business valuation will be based on how much you have grown your business. Let that marinate in your head a little bit. The biggest thing that a person in business does is pull money out of their business and put it in place that it’s not accessible and it does not provide an immediate or cashflow in the fairly near future.

You are putting money into prison and you have to ask yourself, “Who is that benefiting? Is that benefiting you or the person with the narrative that they are telling you?” That person may not be a bad person. They are just taught by some corporation how to preach that narrative. They probably don’t even think about it either.

I had told people before, “If I knew how much managing money was required to be a business owner before I got into business owner ownership, I would have gone to work for someone else and let them deal with all the money stuff,” not to just think about planning and making sure we are investing. My financial advisor said, “The best investment you can make with extra cash right now is in your business.” With what we do in helping people hire, especially in the frontline, we also get involved in some of the management positions as well. When we are helping them build out their teams and grow the business, we always find that they don’t want to let go.

They grind it out. That’s what we are taught to do. The problem is if you grind it out until you are 65 and then you want to sell your business because that was your retirement, you are the business. I can’t tell you how many people come to me in their early-60s and are like, “I want to sell in two years. I can’t find people, so my business is stagnant and it’s not getting the valuation I want.” They get the valuation and they find out that without them there, the business is not worth a whole lot, some assets and maybe a customer list.

That idea that we need to grind is rooted in a scarcity mindset. It’s like if I’m not there to do it, it’s not going to get done. There’s so much around mindset when it comes to money. What is one thing that you think holds business owners back? We have this myth, but what is it that they are doing or not doing that’s keeping them from realizing the value they have in their business.

BCC 69 Rachel Marshal | Mindset — Mindset: The biggest myth that comes to mind is that wealth is all about just money. We think it’s the dollar in the retirement account, but true wealth is really about human flourishing.

We are big Dan Sullivan followers. We believe that you have to focus on finding the unique ability of everybody to employ unique ability teamwork. You are part of that team. You should not be doing everything in the business. Your job is to work on the business. I don’t think it is ever original, but one of the things that business owners often feel like working on the airplane while it’s flying. They are trying to keep it flying. They don’t realize it would probably be better if they hired a pilot, a couple of flight attendants and maintenance people to work on the ground because you are probably pretty good at every one of those things, but you are not the best.

I came out of the world of education and taught for seventeen years. I use this analogy. As we go up into higher education, which business owners should be trying to do, grow their business from the ground going up. A Math teacher can teach Science because they have had some Science in their life. They could teach English because they have had some English in their life, but I don’t want my son or daughter learning from a Math teacher, teaching Science and English.

You have got to find good people in those particular areas if you want to thrive and send people off like we are trying to grow citizens in our society the best they can possibly be. The same thing in your business, if you are wanting your business to be the best it possibly be, you need specialists in these areas by utilizing unique ability and teamwork.

The number one thing keeping business owners stuck is that they have not transitioned across Robert Kiyosaki’s quadrant from the idea of being self-employed where, “I know what I’m doing. I know this work. I know this field,” until you are a specialist or a technician in the field, but being a specialist or a technician is being self-employed. Truly owning a business is running an operation that relies on people, systems and processes to have a self-perpetuating business that you are in charge of, in control of, but not doing all of the pieces.

One of the biggest challenges we have when I’m talking to business owners, especially when they are smaller, and I ask this question, “Are you still in the truck?” We do a lot of work with the trades. Some of them are like, “Yeah, because I have to. I’m short-staffed. I can’t seem to get myself out of it. I love being in the truck.” They have created a job for themselves.

I found that the gap that they have to bridge from being in the truck to being out of the truck, moving from self-employed to more of that entrepreneurship or business ownership, that bridge is so big and complex sometimes that it’s almost a problem. I am at the point where I don’t know that that can be solved. If that’s what they want, that’s where they are going to be.

One of the things that come up out of this is that they are in this belief that, “My time is equal to money. If I’m not in the truck, I can’t get a paycheck.” The only way money comes out of the business for themselves is as if they are in the truck doing the work. That’s something that you believe also holds people back because they don’t learn how to manage the money and pay themselves well so that they can continue to grow their business.

Many times, business owners get stuck doing $10 an hour tasks. As we spend all of our time putting out fires and doing all the things that are at the lower end of what’s required in our job, we don’t free up our mental space to think about the big problems that need to be solved, the systems differently, what people we need to hire and how they can grow. You have to step away and hire the people who can do those $10 an hour tasks because you need to think of your time as $100, $500, $1,000 or $5,000 per hour as a business owner.

If you use your unique ability to serve others, you're going to create money. Click To Tweet

If you think about your time being worth more and you hire out the things that are using up your time, that is not the best use of your time. You will have more free space to think and strategize so that you can grow. That requires paying the person to do the task. It requires paying yourself to do the task as well. Mike Michalowicz is fantastic at this.

I’m sure that you are familiar with Profit First and the idea of having that profit account and paying yourself. That’s a huge piece because if you are in business and trying to make ends meet, serve the next customer and stay open tomorrow. You are not having this long-term view of, “My business is in operation to build the life that I wanted in the first place and to bless and serve other people to contribute to their lives,” you need to think long-term so you can be sustainable.

There’s only been a couple of books that have had a huge impact on me and Profit First was one of them. It was not until I read Profit First for Contractors by Shawn Van Dyke. That hit me. He talks about the Craftsmen Cycle, which is we out and we get the business, then we go do the business and then we go out and get the business. Some people call it the revenue rollercoaster or entrepreneurial rollercoaster. It’s all the same thing. Even if I’m doing $100 an hour work, and I’m the only one doing that work, my business has a lid on it. There’s only so much revenue I’m ever going to be able to make at $100 an hour of work.

I need to find a bunch of people who can do $25 an hour work and go hire 50 of them. All of a sudden, now my business can grow. For a lot of people, that first step is saying, “I’m going to take money out of business and pay me first,” not only is it scary, but often it does not pencil. I’ve learned that. I do the math and I’m like, “There’s not this percentage to take out every month and still pay the bills.”

I have found and talked to enough people to find that does work. Let’s talk about that mindset component because that’s important and I know that you spend a lot of time thinking about this mindset piece. What are some of these beliefs that people hold onto that they need to let go of to move from scarcity to that mindset of abundance and know that this business can do so much more for them?

The idea of scarcity is wired into our DNA. We think everything is a limited resource and that if you win, I’m going to have to lose. If I win, you are going to have to lose. If I make more money, somebody else is going to lose out, and I’m taking money or stealing off the table from them. That is absolutely a false way of thinking. Instead, we need to recognize something huge. That money is created by providing value. If you use your unique ability to serve others, you are going to create money, which is going to improve the world for everyone else. The next piece is that so many people are telling us what to do. Bruce, you talked about noise earlier.

We need to recognize that there are people saying, “Pay off your house and be completely debt-free.” They have an agenda. They want money in their control. You have people saying, “Invest with me. I’m going to get you better returns on your retirement account. You are going to have more retirement dollars.” What’s their agenda? They want control of your capital.

You can hear from the bank, “Put all your money in the bank.” What’s their agenda? They want control of your capital. There is a common theme everybody else wants control of your capital. That is a huge piece that we need to take over in this abundance, thinking that, “I should be in control of my own capital. I’m the best person to do that.”

I have a major and a Master’s degree in Biology. That’s from my educational background. We are wired in a fight-and-flight way for our species to survive. We have to fight this scarcity mindset because that’s how we were developed as an organism, but we have to become hunter-gatherers because we have to try to find these things daily because we don’t know if there’s going to be any more of those. That has persisted in our way of thinking, even though we don’t have to hunt and gather anymore. What you do as a business owner then is you have to say to yourself, “Am I strong enough to get out of this mindset?”

Many people are if that’s the only thing they have to focus on, but they have to focus on everything else, hopefully, their family, health and business. I should not say they don’t have to, but they do have to then make a conservative effort. We tend to then put that on the back burner when we have all these other things flying around. That’s why I would advocate having somebody as you have. You should have a business coach and somebody that’s helping you with your health, whether it’s a doctor, dietician or alternative medicine person. You should have somebody that’s a mindset coach for you. That helps you along the way. It’s an imperative part of your overall health.

The other thing Rachel and I always say is we don’t like this work. This may be surprising because you may have had other people on the show that talked about this. We don’t believe in work-life balance. People say, “What do you mean you don’t believe in work-life balance. You got to have your life under control?” We believe that it’s just life. There is no work and there is no family or life over here. It’s all life. You have to set your life up.

You don’t just say, “I’m working off from 6:00 in the morning until 6:00 at night. I’m shutting it off and I’m going to go with my family.” You should be setting your business up so that if you have to, you can easily go pick your sick daughter up at the school and attend to her or your wife says, “I would like to have lunch with you on Wednesday and talk about a few things,” then you are just, “That’s not even a problem. I’m going to put that in my schedule. It’s no big deal.”

What we have been told is the work-life balance. You got to schedule your work and life. That’s where a lot of these stresses come out with mindset because we have forgotten these little sound soundbites and our life has been to soundbites. None of that is more evident than what we are going through with COVID. It’s all about little soundbites, whether it’s a CDC, our government, the World Health Organization, or people selling a mask. It’s all quick soundbites. You got to overcome these soundbites.

You talk a lot about generational wealth. That’s something that, as business owners, we need to be thinking about since the day we start. Thinking about, “How do we turn this into something that’s going to outlive me?” We have all got a Millennial joke about them being entitled, lazy or whatever that is. We need to understand that the generations view work differently. When the Boomers were being raised by their parents who survived The Great Depression, they were taught, “You need to hoard. You need to protect things. You need to do this. You need to find a company that you can work for 30 years, retire with a pension, take social security and do all those things.”

The Boomers live through some great party times and are like, “We don’t need all of this.” What they did was started teaching their kids, the Gen X-ers and the Millennials, “You do whatever you want. You be whoever you want. You pursue your dreams because the world is a different place now. You don’t have to worry about this protection and scarcity mindset of like, ‘What if the bottom drops out again?’”

We raised an entire generation that basically believes that work is there only to support their lifestyle. We talked about this and saw a lot of means around Millennials saying, “On Monday, if I don’t need money, I’m going to want to take that day off because my life is more important to me.” One of the things we work on is changing this mindset about the way Millennials and the modern workforce think about work. We call it work-life integration.

Business owners need to be honest with the people they hire and those who use their goods and services. Click To Tweet

There is no work-life balance. It’s not like we try to figure out how we balance the two. It’s like we integrate. If I need to take a Wednesday afternoon off, my work is such that it’s flexible enough that I can do that or maybe even understanding as employers, sometimes we need to give employees that flexibility as well if we want them to stay committed. We also have to understand that most of the modern workforce thinks of it as, “If I take Wednesday afternoon off, maybe after the kids go to bed on Wednesday night, I will put in a couple of extra hours to catch up.” That’s not balanced. That’s integration. It’s figuring out how my work and my life integrate with each other.

There’s so much around this. The challenge is we can not recognize scarcity as scarcity sometimes. Scarcity on one end of the spectrum says, “I have to save every dollar. I can never spend anything because the bottom might drop out.” Scarcity, on the other side of the spectrum, spins everything because they are afraid of running out of time and not getting to enjoy that money. The problem is the super spender that consumes everything is as much of a scarcity mindset as the person who saves every dollar and hoards it under the bed, mattress, coffee can or freezer.

Both of those are based on fear. Abundance is a faith perspective that truly is a good steward of resources. To be a good steward, you have to first recognize that money is something that is a tool. We are meant to be able to grow and manage it well. This whole generational component is we need to not only be able to pass wealth into future generations, but we need to equip future generations to understand how to manage and use money, not just spend it, but to grow money.

If we think of this stewardship component, that’s a huge calling then for each of us to figure out how to invest well in the next generation. As we are talking about this whole work-life integration, it comes down to starting with saying, “What is my value system? What are my values? What is my mission, vision and purpose in life?” If you get clear on what you want to create, then you can line up your life with that.

If you are going through work to say, “I’m going to work so that I can spend the money,” and you are just spending time with your family so that you can go back to work the next day, that’s a shortsighted view. Instead of you say, “What do I want to create? What home life do I want? What type of family do I want to create?” Then you are in a position to have work that supports that and have a family be integrated in work and think of life more as this life integration.

I’m going to ask you both a question that has been a hot topic in my circles. It’s finance-related, but it’s also people-related. One of the things that a lot of people are talking about is everybody wants to make way too much money for the same job, wages are going up and there’s this scarcity mindset of, “I can’t afford to pay more.” In a lot of the forums that I’m on and the chat rooms, everybody asks me, “How can I get people to come over to my company knowing I’m not paying the market wage even? I’m paying $11 or $15 an hour?”

What are your thoughts or some advice you could give our readers that are struggling with this, “Wages seem to be going up in the industry, but I don’t know how I’m going to make that pencil, how that’s going to work paying higher wages?” What are some things they can think about to push through that?

I want to start from a biological component. There’s something in the Biology-Ecology called the climax community. It talks about how many resources can be in a community. Economics is the same way. It’s like how many resources do you need to produce a product or service? How many resources do you need to bring in capital to consume those products and services? I will give an example because I came from a farming community. We had a lot of prairie areas.

From a biological perspective, there are only so many organisms that can be on an acre of land, but it does not say the same. In other words, if there are 50 rabbits on an acre, it does not stay constant. Five rabbits die and are born every day. It ebbs and flows, and then you put something into that resource area, that acre, that was unintended, like a coyote came in and ate fifteen of them. All of a sudden, the population drops. You might have a situation where you have a lot of rain. A lot of the resources grow, which can sustain a lot more rabbits. The rabbits grow, but then all these rabbits consume a lot more of the resources. Now a lot of rabbits die from starvation and a bit eventually, you reach what they call a climax community. You go up and down, and those peaks and valleys start to smooth out.

The economy is the same way. We are in a situation for a variety of reasons that the worker, labor cost is going up and it’s not going to go up at the same rate that it has been going up. That’s why all of a sudden, the rabbit population goes up. Business owners then have to figure out where that ebb and flow is, that climax community, the ecosystem for their particular business. It may not be that you say, “I’m going to pay $20 an hour instead of $15 an hour.” Your scarcity mindset comes in and says, “I can’t charge more for my product or my service because people will stop using it.”

First of all, you need to be honest with the people you are hiring and the people that are using your goods and services. I have a couple of businesses. One of them is a retail barbecue place. When prices went up, we simply made signs that said, “Due to the increased food costs, we are increasing the prices on these particular items. Sorry for the inconvenience.” The response was very nice. People will say, “We understand.” They would verbally say that.

Some people would say, “I can’t even believe you guys kept the prices low this long.” I’m a big believer that the business owner has to communicate with their people, why something is happening. The same way when you are hiring. You say, “We are offering $18 an hour, but for that, you are going to get X, Y and Z. You are going to get the ability to call in anytime or whatever the parameters are once a quarter and say, ‘I’m taking a mental health day.’ You don’t have to give a reason. You are still going to get paid. It can be at any time five minutes before you have to start work, or you say, ‘I have some issues going on. I’m going to stay at home for now and do my work from home.’”

Obviously, there are certain industries you can’t work from home, but you have to be creative and tell the person, “Yes. You are only getting X amount of dollars, but look at not just the financial benefits, like health insurance, retirement benefits, but the other things that allow you to integrate this work-life integration.” The employees will respond.

Employment benefits are so much more than just compensation. If you can think about the way that you can help your employees feel valued, you understand their needs, they have a place to belong. They feel like they are in a tribe or in a community that sticks together and that is for each other, the affinity that you have from an employee is much more than the paycheck that they are getting.

The other thing I would say is to raise your prices. If you are the business owner and you have additional capital that’s going to be going out to be able to retain the quality of labor that you need to be able to deliver on the promise that you have, I’m sure that none of you are in business to say, “Let’s do the cheapest job possible.” You are saying, “What’s my unique selling proposition. What is the way that I deliver this better than anyone else? I’m faster than the other HVAC company. I’m more upfront and I communicate more fully with transparency to my clients,” whatever that unique selling proposition is, in order to be able to fulfill that, you may need higher quality labor to be able to do that. You may need to raise your prices so that you can hire better employees.

I will give you a quick example of a trade that I used? My dishwasher broke in my house. I got online, “Repair Missouri. Repair specialist for dishwashers.” The first one that popped up was Sears Repair. I didn’t even know they were still available. They have a calendar and I could not get it repaired for two weeks. I click on it anyway because I’m thinking, “What if everybody is like that because of COVID?” I clicked on it. I set an appointment. They tell me it’s going to be a $149 service charge. This is two weeks out. Rachel said, “Raise your prices.”

Employment benefits are so much more than just compensation. Click To Tweet

I’m like, “Let me see if I can find somebody else.” I found somebody and it was a local person. I called them and they said, “We can be there late today. Would you mind if I’m there tomorrow morning?” I said, “That would be great.” They said, “Our service charge is $89, but we want to make sure you understand. That’s just for us to come. There may be some additional charges.” Their service charge is $89 and they are getting there the next morning. The big corporation was $149 and is not getting there for two weeks. Obviously, they are booked.

The guy shows up. It was simply a wire that had burned through wire nuts. He takes new wiring up, puts it on and says, “It only took me five minutes, but we have a minimum charge of fifteen minutes. I hope you don’t mind. I did not even charge you for the wing nut.” I’m like, “Are you sure that’s okay?” I’m always worried about business owners. I want the owner to be happy with this. He goes, “I am the owner.”

I said, “I can’t help you because I do a lot of business consulting. I want to let you know what your competition is doing. I could not get an appointment for two weeks and they are charging $149. Obviously, people are paying it or they would not be booked up for two weeks. You are charging $89 and you are here the next day.” He goes, “I can’t raise the prices on my loyal customers.” I said, “I think your loyal customers would appreciate it if you would raise the prices so you could stay in business, thrive and feel good.”

He could not grasp that concept. I would share that because I know you have a lot of tradespeople because that is the reality. They need to start thinking differently about that. Your customers want you to be in business. They want you to thrive, not just survive. Grasp those things in life, look at your numbers, and compare them to your competition. Don’t be afraid to charge because you are good.

First, a guy could have said $200. He could have had another guy go out and not the business owner paid that guy $89. He could have got $111 for his profit account. That’s a different way of thinking.

You got to understand what the market is doing for sure. I believe that your customers want you to win. Not that I win and someone else loses, but we all win together, more of that collaboration. One of the things we talk to our clients about is, “Who can you ask for a referral for an employee because it’s hard to find employees right now?” I’m like, “What about your customers?”

I can’t tell you how many times he would be like, “I can’t ask my customers. They can’t know that I need to hire people right now. What are they going to think?” I’m like, “They could think that you are growing and that hiring is difficult. You are asking them for help. They want you to win because they want you to be in business. They want you to be able to continue to take care of them.”

One of my favorite barbecue places down here, we went there and the cost of brisket went up to $7 a pound. I was like, “There’s no notice. There’s no sign. There’s no nothing, but what do I do?” I’m there and it’s my favorite place to get brisket. I pay the money. Many business owners think, “If I raise my prices, I’m going to lose a bunch of customers.” You are only going to lose a bunch of customers if you are a jerk. They want you to be in business. I would be devastated if they went out of business because where am I going to get my brisket now?

There’s so much to that. It’s so much about this abundance mindset. I loved how you started, Rachel, where you are talking about generational wealth and how it’s more than just the money. That only comes from having that abundance mindset. I know that you have a book coming out. I do want you to get to play a little bit because I know people are going to be reading this a lot. Tell us a little about the book that’s coming out. You also have a free offer for our readers.

Let me wrap this all into one for you. The book came out of a near-death experience for me. In May of 2019, I delivered my second daughter and had major complications afterward. I almost did not make it. At the time, I have been in the financial services industry, the financial services space for a long time. We had our estate plan in place, which is something that I highly recommend any business owner and any person to go look at doing an estate plan. We had our estate plan. We had as much life insurance as we could get, both my husband and I, which I highly recommend every single person look at getting as much life insurance as you can. Your human life values. That means as much benefit as you can get.

I had both of those things, but what I realized is that if I had not made it, I had a brand new baby girl and a seven-year-old daughter, what would have been in place beside my husband? None of our lives are guaranteed. What would our daughters have done if they were given this transfer of money financial capital? Even though there’s an estate plan and money in place, what if they receive that and they did not have the guidance to know exactly what to do with it? Spelled out, the values, vision and mission for a life written down so that they would be able to do all the things that we dreamed of doing with them, even if we were not here.

That set my husband, Lucas, and I on this trajectory for several years, figuring out what do we do in our own family to make sure that we are leaving a legacy that’s not just money. How are we passing on the meaning, values, helping our kids become stewards and truly grow so that they can be everything that they are created and called to be? We realized that not only was this helpful for us, but how could we help other people to step into living this legacy, creating generational wealth that’s not just money but it’s also meaning. It’s not just the finances, but it’s also the values. This book that I have coming out is called Seven Generations: Designing A Multi-Generational Legacy Of More Than Money.

It walks through the three pillars, the meaning, mechanism and money. These are the three things that you need in place to make sure that your gift and contribution to the next generation are truly going to accomplish your goals for them. It’s almost a passion project for me and this beautiful way of recognizing that my work was so meaningful to my everyday life.

That is coming out soon. We also have The Insider’s Guide to Earning a Return on the Same Money in Two Places at the Same Time. That is available at PrivatizedBankingSecrets.com. If you go straight there, it’ll be the first thing that pops up and you will be able to grab that guide. This walks you through the basics of understanding how to be the business owner that stores capital, keeps money in your control, and then is able to use that money to improve the rest of your financial life. Something that we do often is called infinite banking. This is a bare-bones, super simple paired-down introduction to what infinite banking is all about and why controlling your capital is so valuable to you.

Thank you so much for being here. I enjoyed the conversation. Sometimes I steer away from financial conversations because it gets a little too technical, but I love your take on the mindset of money and thinking about abundance, how you can put that back to work for you and create a business that you are not only excited about but is working for you. For those who are reading, make sure you go check out and grab that free download. Thank you.

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About Rachel Marshall

Author. Speaker. Consultant. Entrepreneur. Al Levi is a success story like no other. Retiring before age 50, Al Levi began sharing his 7-Power Contractor system, helping other contractors throughout the U.S., Canada and Australia know more success and less stress in their businesses. Contractors can access Al through his book, online one-of-a kind Operating Manuals program, and his long-running column in Plumbing & Mechanical magazine and now in PHC News. For more information, contact [email protected] or visit 7PowerContractor.com.

About Bruce Wehner

I help people keep more of their money. I Discover what money is flowing into your control and what money is flowing out of your control. Then I Strategize to get more money to flow into your control. The End result you will have more money to retain and utilize not only for your life and for future generations.

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