Blue Collar Culture

Business Results the Old Fashioned Way

Deb Calvert | Exposing the Biggest Myths of Leadership

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If, as a business leader, you feel “lonely at the top,” you’re going about it all wrong, says Deb Calvert, who helps companies with leadership and sales training, as well as creating more effective teams. If you become friends with your employees… you’ve gone too far the other way. 

Deb offers a middle ground that makes people more productive and your business more successful. 

It’s a strategy that incentivizes employees to work hard and in the right direction… without having to be told.

We unpack that in detail and also discuss…

  • How to motivate people without money (it starts with finding the right people)
  • The difference between managing work and leading people
  • A process for boosting recruitment and retention (plus productivity and customer satisfaction)
  • The best way to show your employees you care – what that means and why it’s important
  • And more

Listen now…

Mentioned in this episode:

 

Transcript

Ryan Englin: Welcome back to another episode of the Blue Collar Culture Podcast. I'm your co-host Ryan Englin and I'm here with Jeremy Macliver.

Jeremy Macliver: Welcome back, everybody.

Ryan: And I'm really excited about today's guest because she works with something inside of the organization that I am personally passionate about. She's one of the 65 most influential women in business. She's a top 30 global sales guru, an inductee into the Sales Hall of Fame, and she builds organizational strength by putting people first. So I can't, I am so excited about this conversation today. Deb Calvert, welcome to the show.

Deb Calvert: Thank you, Ryan. I am so excited to be here. I have a little confession to make. I've got like, I've got an earworm. It just keeps, right, the stick song thinking about this podcast and proud to be blue collar, right? So thanks for having me.

Ryan: Thanks for being here. So let's just start off. We've talked a little bit, there are a lot of things that you impact inside of an organization, but it all comes down to one thing. What is that one thing?

Deb: Oh, it's all about connections that you have with other people. Whether they're your employees, your customers or your banker, so much boils down to the connections that you make.

Ryan: So unpack that for me a little bit. Talk to me about the connections inside of the organization from, let's say, a business owner or a senior leader's perspective.

It’s All About Connections You Have With Other People

Deb: Okay. Well, I think there are these myths that work against people. So let's unpack that first and get it out of the way. You hear things like leaders live in ivory towers, or it's lonely at the top. And if it's lonely at the top, you're doing it all wrong because no matter what you're focusing on, processes, profits, procedures, all of those happen because of people.

And if you connect with people, you can unleash the power of your organization and achieve all those other objectives that you might have. And there are simple, easy everyday ways to make those connections that have nothing to do with your title and other things that might get in the way like those misperceptions could cause you to lean away from people and not towards them.

Ryan: So I've heard it said before, and I've actually seen this happen inside of businesses where leaders connect with people and they become friends with them. And then all of a sudden, there's this change in the relationship. That's not what you're talking about. Is that correct?

Deb: I'm glad you said that because let's think of this as a continuum, right? The far end of the continuum that we've already talked about is, you don't know anybody, they're just numbers. You give them a paycheck and that's all you owe them. And you have no connection. And the opposite is, we're a family and we know each other and we hang out 24 seven and we are so tightly interwoven and connected. But that too can become dysfunctional when it comes time to operate a business and make decisions that are good for the business and ultimately then, for people.

So we're going to bring that continuum closer to the center, to the right place that you want to be. It's about healthy connections with people that serve the purposes of the business and meet the needs of the people without somehow compromising those connections and confusing them with non-workplace types of connections. So at a high level, that's the difference that I'm describing.

Ryan: Can you give me an example or maybe a success story where you've seen this happen? Something that's really relevant our audience can relate to.

Deb: Absolutely. So it is a good thing, a virtuous thing to care about the people who work with you and for you. And you want that to be demonstrated to them in the ways that show them you care about them, you want them to be a part of your organization, and you value what they do. Specifically, you do that by asking people's opinions, getting their input on the decisions that will affect them. You do it by checking in with them. Hey, how is this impacting the work I'd asked you to do? What are your ideas for what we are about to launch, something different?

What are you hearing from customers? You constantly have those kinds of exchanges that do what I call ennobling people. And that's a keyword here. The end of the spectrum that is the negative end, the not enough end, is about enablement. I'm gonna give you all the tools and the training and enable you to do the job. The opposite end of that is all ennobling. I make you feel worthy and important. I am a servant leader. I do things only for you. We got to have both. Enabling and ennobling is the sweet spot.

Jeremy: That's really cool. So how do I know where I'm at? Like, how do I assess where I'm at with that relationship with either my employees, now used to disclose our vendors to those things. Maybe just focusing on the employees right now. How do I assess where I'm at on that continuum?

Deb: Great question, Jeremy. I'll tell you where most people do it, it's when a critical incident pops up. And maybe you don't want to wait to get to this point. But you've probably already been there so you can use that looking backwards to assess. A critical incident is any incident or situation where it's a crisis, a decision is going to have high stakes, high impact. And in those instances, what are you leaning toward?

What are impulses telling you to do? Are they telling you to cut people off and it's business only? Or are they telling you to make it all about people, even at the significant loss to you and your business? Whichever way you're leaning, probably gives you that self-assessment and gives you an indicator of how to get back to the center. You have to do both. What's good for this business is good for the people in this business.

Ryan: So that's some great insight into how to know where you're at. What do you see is the best place to start with making these changes and realizing that I have to protect the business but I got to create connection with my people? Like how do you get started doing that?

Managing vs. Leading

Deb: I think, let me start out theoretically first, again, here, high level and then we'll drill it down. I think it starts with an understanding of the difference of managing work and leading people. You have to manage the work. That's the short term Those are your objectives for today. That's getting work done through other people. And you can't forget to do that even if you sometimes feel like a micromanager or even if sometimes you have to give people uncomfortable, candid feedback, that's essential. So you've got to manage the work. At the same time, you learn to lead people.

To lead means to guide, to show people a way forward to a new place, something bigger, something meaningful. A place where they might not have been before but want to be. And so as a leader, you have a vision and other people share in that vision. And you express that vision when you ask people to do things as a manager, you keep it in context with the vision. And people enlisted in that vision. They see themselves in it. They're inspired by it. They want to work hard for it and they'll do things not because you told them to and you're a nag, but because they genuinely want to take steps forward.

Ryan: Can you share a story that you've had with, a success story that you've had with a client where they've actually seen that happen? Maybe they did something simple. They didn't think it was going to be a huge impact but the impact was just incredible.

Deb: Yes. I'm gonna tell you a story about a small company. And they were a growing company. They grew plants that they then sold as transplants to other larger companies who would manufacture and distribute the whole crop. So this company, this growing company, they were very much about, we manage, we have temporary workers, we tell them what to do, they come in here for the season, and then they're gone.

And they just managed. And one of the things we did was developed a vision, a mission and a set of values for the organization, primarily to get the people at the top, the ones who were full-year workers aligned with each other because it was a mess. They were talking about all kinds of different things. And once that was all worked out, we incorporated it into their recruiting materials in English and Spanish, and help them in the interview process to start looking for people who shared those values and felt inspired by them as well as understanding the mission and the vision.

And the most significant thing they noticed first, is the huge number. It was double digits. I don't remember the exact number, but the huge number of increases they got of people who came back the next season. They didn't have to start from scratch with recruiting. People remembered they felt good, they felt a sense of belonging. And that reduced their cost of recruiting significantly. It made their job so much easier. When their competitors were still scrambling, they had the people coming back.

Ryan: Incredible what defining some values can do to an organization and create that sense of community and belonging for people. So I love that.

Deb: Yes. And it sounds sort of nebulous, it sounds sort of out there, you know? But it's more than something that's nice to have. It's something that differentiates you from your competitors and keeps even wage skill employees right there with you, lockstep with you.

Jeremy: Right. I almost couldn't agree more on this. What you said there resonates so much with the, it seems like a nice to have this core values and these core value conversations, but I have found I remember one of my clients who's, they do groundskeeping, like landscaping stuff, and you would think core values in that setting?

I remember them coming back one quarter and were like, these things are almost a killer man. This is rough as, and not rough as in, they thought was gonna be a soft, fluffy deal. And they realized how decisive these things helped them make clarity around people about decisions, and they started seeing the effects of it exponentially change the way that a company felt, communicated, aligned. It's really, it's a really cool thing.

Intrinsic Motivation vs. Extrinsic Motication

Deb: It is. You know, and what we're really, if we boil it down, Jeremy, we're talking about the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. Extrinsic, I'm going to tell you and you're going to do it because there's a negative repercussion, or I'm going to give you and you're going to do it because there's a reward. Carrot and stick. The difference, though, with intrinsic is that you don't have to tell me or give me, I want it. I'm going to do it for myself. And it's the difference between letting a fire underneath someone and then you have to light it over and over and over again, or igniting a spark inside of them. One that's going to burn brighter and last longer.

Ryan: I think that's some great insight because what I see a lot of times is a lot of these business leaders, there's someone on their team that they're just not clicking with. They're just not, there's something not right. They're producing, they're okay, but there's just something that's tugging at them saying this isn't the right person for the team. And I think a lot of times that comes down to that internal spark like you're talking about.

And I think those values are so good at igniting that spark. And if there's a values misalignment, maybe there's something that's just off. Like, that's really what the business owner or the business leader's talking about. When they say there's something not right about this person. They just, I'm not excited they're on my team, but they do okay. It's because there's usually a value that's often it's not keeping that spark lit.

Jeremy: I think of a time that I was giving a workshop and I'm sure you'll love this story. I was talking about there's a better purpose for your employees, like there's some form of reason that they actually want to go to work besides money. And, you know, it's making this case fairly strong. And I started asking, you know, some different feedback from the audience. And while I was doing it, there was a guy in the back of the room who literally was like, almost violently shaking his head. That's not the truth.

And he stuck his hand up, he blurted it over other people said, my employees are only about the money. And he was like, I was like, Oh, great, this talk is going off. We're getting ready to make a train wreck. And his, one of his employees was sitting behind him that he couldn't see, and she was looking at him like he'd fallen off of a log. And she was like, No, I actually do want other things besides just money. I actually wanted to belong somewhere. And he could not get past the point that it was all dollars and cents, carrot and stick.

Deb: We tend to project what's true for us and we tend to emulate the environments we've been in. So if you've worked in a place where that's what it was all about, or if you happen to be one of the very small percentage of people who truly is only money motivated, then maybe you would look at the world in that way. But then you're not ennobling people. So step one is to understand what makes someone feel worthy and important, then you're going to find out like this person in your workshop did, that there are other ways of looking at this.

Jeremy: Yeah. So let me ask you, I mean, as a manager, I'm faced with a situation. I'm not really clear where I'm at on this continuum and I'm not sure, do I go more like, Hey, I just need the results right now? Or do I go more I care about the person? Like, if I'm teetering and I'm not sure where the balance is, how should I guide my decision?

Deb: Yeah, you know, the truth is you need both. But if you're trying to figure out where you are and what to do next, I would say the one thing that will always help and never hurt is to ask people. So to go to the people on your team, your employees, maybe some others who work closely with you, some close in colleagues and to say I want a better understanding of the impact I'm having. How do my actions affect the work I'm asking you to do? Don't ask for feedback.

That's way too broad, because people won't know what to say and they won't tell you the truth. But this very narrow type of feedback, I want to know how my actions impact the work that you're doing, that is narrow enough, and generally safe enough that people will give you feedback. And then, of course, you have to listen to it, you have to take it for what it's worth, not have some sort of defensive reaction to it. And understand that people are giving you the feedback because they genuinely want to help and they probably want to see something done differently for them.

So to tell everybody, let me put it in sequence. Here are the values we hold. This is how we do the work we do. Here's the mission, the vision, this is why we exist and where we're going. Now, in that context, I would like for you to be someone who's contributing in every possible way. Not just punching the clock. So how does what I do influence the work that you're doing? And that's the sense of belonging. If people can trust that, and then you have a culture that over and over again, feeds that kind of a conversation, it's a game-changer.

Jeremy: I love that. So the leader says, this is where we're going. They declare that vision. And then they turn to the people and say, how do we get there? How do we move this forward as a team? Not necessarily because I don't know but because I want your help. That what you're saying?

Deb: Yeah. Let me just throw in a couple of nuances there, Jeremy. First of all, instead of declaring the vision, even better if you can make it a shared vision, people have informed it they've given you input along the way they feel a part of it even as it's taking shape because then they're truly mobilized by it. They want to help bring it to life. And then secondly, those check-ins are really important, but the context is even more important. So every time I'm asking you to do something, it's not just do it because I said, so. It's do it in service of this vision, in accord with what we are doing here together, this place we want to go.

Jeremy: Very good. So tie down any of our actions to that vision but have them help us build that vision together. What are some ways that a manager or a leader can go from I give all the answers to I'm supportive and we are more inclusive?

Because a lot of times what I've experienced and a lot of my clients is that when they take the shift, and like Deb, hey, I really want your feedback, the people that are their employees, their direct reports pretty much say Hey, boss, just give me the answer. And they find that it's hard to get them to open up. What are some good questions I could ask? What are some ways that they could get their team members to open up?

Show Interest in Your Employees

Deb: Okay, I'm gonna do something else first, because it's only fair. We don't, you wouldn't have this kind of open learning invitation all the time. Sometimes the stakes are too high, the urgency is too great and the person is too new or too not ready for some reason. So let's make that, put that in place first. The readiness of the person you're talking to. And the situation itself allows for learning. And every time that's true. If a mistake were made, it wouldn't be fatal. This person has demonstrated some readiness. And every one of those situations, it's about, you know, I already know the answer.

I'm curious to know what you think. I already have an opinion. I need other people's opinions. What do you mean you're in here asking me how to solve this problem? It's your problem. How are you going to solve it? You just, you bite your tongue and you make it clear over and over and over again that your expectation is for people to try things, to think things through, to make mistakes that they'll learn from and then don't overly penalize them if they do make a mistake, so long as they learn from it. And when they make the mistake, you ask, okay, good thing or not doing brain surgery here. What did you learn from this? What will you do differently next time?

Ryan: I think that's great. Pushing it back to them and helping them grow and helping them develop in their role and not just giving them the orders all the time. So I want to shift this conversation a little bit. Let's talk about some tangible results we can get, because this stuff is great. Ennobling and helping them grow and everything else. But what do I get as the business owner out of this? What are some results that I can expect? Or how should I expect results when I make these changes and I start thinking differently about how I connect with my people?

Deb: Okay, in the interest of time, I just want to say that everything I'm about to tell you is backed by reams of research and data. And people could look this up and get it. But I'm going to throw a bunch at you really fast without exact factoids in it, because what we've been talking about is employee engagement.

And employee engagement is defined as the emotional connection a person feels for their organization that causes them to apply additional discretionary effort. Okay, two parts. First part is emotional connection. So result number one is you get people who will stay with you longer because they're connected. They feel good about working with you. You won't have that revolving door of constantly having to screen applicants and interview people and hire people and train people just so they leave. So that's the first benefit. And, of course, that has a financial implication too.

And then, these emotionally connected people who are sticking around longer, they apply additional discretionary effort. And that's measured and has huge benefits in a lot of different ways. The first one is productivity by every known metric. Calling in sick less often, less tardy, less workers comp claims, higher output, higher levels of quality, productivity, sales, and you get a lot more of it. And because of that, then you get higher levels of customer satisfaction. Your customers are coming back more often.

And when you add all these pieces up together, it means both significantly higher top-line revenue, improved profitability. And this is like a domino effect and every bit of it's double-digit backed by research, no small thing. Employee engagement is really important. One last piece of the puzzle. It begs the question, if I can get all of that from employee engagement, then how do I get employee engagement? And that's what we've been talking about. Leadership, less than management, leadership leads to employee engagement.

Ryan: Wow. So I'm hearing a lot of this and I'm like oof, sounds like a lot of work to connect with my employees enough, to engage them long enough to get these tangible results. What should someone expect if they start connecting better with their employees? Are they going to see immediate results?

Deb: You'll see results pretty quickly as long as there's not extreme dysfunction and mistrust in the organization. And even then it's not insurmountable. But it's simple things. And, you know, behaviors that lead to employee engagement, I think that would be helpful. But it's simple things. It's things like checking in with people when they come into work. Hey, how was your weekend? What's new?

How's the family right? Not in a barrage, but those kinds of questions on a regular basis that you genuinely are interested and that you care. It's things like remembering that somebody really likes fishing and so you mentioned that every once in a while. It's things like giving people feedback in a timely and constructive way so they don't keep making the same mistakes over and over again until the relationship itself is damaged. Simple, everyday kinds of things.

Ryan: That's great. So I can do these little things. And it can't just be lip service. I want to be clear with that. people will see through that. Is that fair?

Deb: That's fair. If you have to fake it, you either have the wrong people or you have the wrong internal driver yourself in terms of what you're trying to do. It really does have to be people first, that you have a mindset of I'm going to succeed because of the people I have here helping me.

Ryan: Absolutely. So when I start doing some of these things, are there obvious signs that it's working? Like I want, I would put myself in a situation like, I really do care about my people, but at the same time, I do care about my company, because the healthier my company is, the healthier, the more revenue, the more profit, the better. I can take care my people. What are some things that you can measure that will say, hey, connecting with my people is really paying off besides the bottom line? Because that's so lagging, it takes so long to figure that one out. What are some things that I could look at?

A Domino Effect of Comprehensive Productivity

Deb: Yeah, so back it up on that domino effect that I talked about. Look for your indicators in customer satisfaction, look for productivity, look at employee retention. And even before that, that emotional connection. Are people maintaining eye contact with you? Are they having some friendly banter with you? Are they showing up to work on time? These are some of the things that if you had a baseline, you can easily start comparing very, very soon to see that you're on the right track. The small wins add up to the big wins.

Ryan: Absolutely. And I've heard it said before, if you have happy employees, you're gonna have happy customers. So just starting with that piece is gonna pay dividends in the long run. So I've enjoyed this conversation. It sounds like there's a lot of opportunity here. And it doesn't seem like it's this huge monumental thing where I have to completely restructure my organization. Like I can just do little things like ask people how their weekend was. Ask how their kid's birthday was, and just invest a little bit in them and just let them know that I'm paying attention and I care about them as a human being and not just an employee.

Deb: I'm convinced that there's nothing on earth more powerful than human to human connections. So when we put on our employer bus hat, we just need to remember that. It's all about connections with people.

Ryan: Absolutely. So I know there are people listening to this going, you know what, Deb, you're right. I need to do this, but I feel like I need some resources. I feel like I need some support. I feel like you need some training. You've got a website and I'm sure they can learn all about you and how you help companies do this. Tell us about that for a second. What can I learn if I go look you up online?

Deb: Okay. Well, there's a training program. It's built as an individual elearning program that you can take and do on your own at any time that's convenient. It was built for people who are in business for themselves. It was built for people who don't really enjoy classroom settings. It's pretty self-paced and it's about practical. Apply it right now. Take a little chunk of it, go do it, come back, do it, come back. So that's one thing.

That one's for sale. Let's do some free stuff, too. There's a book that I think we ought to give people. It's on Amazon, but we can give you a code to get on there and get it for free. It's called How to be the Manager That Everyone Wants to Work For. And then we talk about this employee engagement checklist, which is also something we can do as a giveaway. And it literally is just a list of things and you customize it to yourself. You pick the ones that you're committing to do and then you just go do them. It's a simple behavioral choice.

Ryan: That's awesome. And we're gonna have that code in the show notes. So make sure you grab that. But how do they learn more about you? How do they find your website, or if they want to learn more about the book before then?

Deb: Yeah, so the website is People First PS, the PS stands for Productivity Solutions. Peoplefirstps.com. And there's a lot on there. Blogs and videos and a link to YouTube and, you know, all the things you, whatever your learning style is, you'll find something there that we give away. infographics, you name it, we've got it.

Ryan: That's awesome. I love that there's so much resources available on your website. Deb, I really enjoyed our conversation today. Thank you so much for joining us for this episode. And I really look forward to speaking with you again in the future.

Deb: Well, thank you, Ryan. Thank you, Jeremy. And thanks in advance for anybody who would like to give me a call and keep the conversation going. You're welcome to do that. I enjoy connections.

Jeremy: And we recommend it. Thank you so much. It was great having you on.

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